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Old 06-03-2020, 03:18 PM   #1
Fierysun
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Default Flex hone and new rings on old block?

What are people's thoughts of using a flex hone and new rings to clean up cylinders that do not need to be bored? How well will it seal?
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Old 06-03-2020, 03:26 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
What are people's thoughts of using a flex hone and new rings to clean up cylinders that do not need to be bored? How well will it seal?
Fine assuming PTW is still within spec and you gap the rings right. Seal would be just like a fresh bore/hone assuming things are still round and other stuff is in spec.
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:38 PM   #3
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I'll just leave this discussion here: https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...cylinder-hone/

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There is no merit to doing this and ESPECIALLY not with a flex-hone. If you are going to do it, it needs done on a power hone machine with diamond hones and it needs to be a two-step plateau hone with an extremely fine finish.

DO NOT TOUCH the cylinder walls. Got that?

Your fears of ring seating issues are unfounded and based on 1970's era ring and cylinder technology. Which these engines are NOT.

What is this "glaze" you speak of? What is it composed of and how did it get there? And what are you attempting to accomplish with roughing up the cylinder walls at random with gravel glued to wire spun up in a drill perfectly suited for mixing drywall mud?
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Old 06-03-2020, 07:07 PM   #4
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I'll just leave this discussion here: https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...cylinder-hone/
Are you suggesting you can just put in new rings and it'll seal?
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
What are people's thoughts of using a flex hone and new rings to clean up cylinders that do not need to be bored? How well will it seal?
is your engine alredy giving out on you? its a cheap way to get around honing your block. its like brakes why resurface your rotors. so your pads can embed into to rotors. same concept with the cross hatches. bt yeah I guess it would work. Ive seen one of the shops I frequent use them/ but it was a cheap fix cause the customer didnt have the money to do it the right way. Personally I would rather get a new block cause there is a good chance your cylinders are out of round.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:58 PM   #6
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is your engine alredy giving out on you? its a cheap way to get around honing your block. its like brakes why resurface your rotors. so your pads can embed into to rotors. same concept with the cross hatches. bt yeah I guess it would work. Ive seen one of the shops I frequent use them/ but it was a cheap fix cause the customer didnt have the money to do it the right way. Personally I would rather get a new block cause there is a good chance your cylinders are out of round.
No, it's a different motor that I had sitting around for quite a few years. I was thinking of freshing it up with new bearings and rings (maybe gapless) and putting it in something.

I'll give Total Seal a call and see what they say about the ideal cylinder finish for their rings.
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Old 06-04-2020, 02:32 PM   #7
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I called Total Seal and they were very helpful. They said that a 280 flex hone can work to produce the correct finish on low mileage engines, but for motors that are 50K+ miles, honing with stone is ideal. Also, the life of the gapless ring should be similar to factory and only used for the top ring and not the second for our application.
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:16 PM   #8
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Are you suggesting you can just put in new rings and it'll seal?
Pretty much. If you're trying to squeak out every ounce of power, take the block to a machine shop, otherwise you can basically slap new rings in and run it if the bores are still good.

If in doubt, ask a Subie engine builder or machinist, of which I am neither.

More discussion: https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...omment=1406764

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Old 06-05-2020, 02:39 AM   #9
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Pretty much. If you're trying to squeak out every ounce of power, take the block to a machine shop, otherwise you can basically slap new rings in and run it if the bores are still good.

If in doubt, ask a Subie engine builder or machinist, of which I am neither.

More discussion: https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum...omment=1406764

After spending some time researching ring seal and talking with ring manufactures. I would say that's crap what you are linking to. Rings needs a particular finish to break in with and seal too and more so with age. I would challenge the compression and leak down of using new rings without any type of cylinder treatment of an old cylinder. I question his entire knowledge and challenge him to post here. I would not take what he claim seriously.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:00 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
No, it's a different motor that I had sitting around for quite a few years. I was thinking of freshing it up with new bearings and rings (maybe gapless) and putting it in something.

I'll give Total Seal a call and see what they say about the ideal cylinder finish for their rings.
sounds good, I was thginking of using total seal for my build but got talked out of it by my builder.. thinking they didnt know how to deal with them, but yeah I think if I were to rebuild again, I would do a h6 with a 3582 priced it out at like 20,000 but the torque curve would be super linear and probabaly aroud 600ish..
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:36 AM   #11
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I flex hone the motors I freshen up (subarus and others) when putting in new rings, if they don't need a full rebuild. If the walls are totally flat it will increase drag. The tiny hone markings on the wall retain oil and the rings just touch the raised portions, with a thin layer of oil in the valleys reducing friction.

Last one I did was my own 99 forester about 6 months ago. Runs perfect and has not used any oil between oil changes (2000 miles & 5000 miles so far).
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:29 AM   #12
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+1 if theres no lip that can be felt by the fingernail then a light stone bore hone using a light oil or brake cleaner being sprayed while doing it should be perfect with new rings. i have done this in both professional settings and personal builds with great success, if its able to be felt should be bored and measured to ensure ptw isnt excessive. i know a few people that dont bother to re-ring it and they do ok from what they tell me...
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:50 PM   #13
car_freak85
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
After spending some time researching ring seal and talking with ring manufactures. I would say that's crap what you are linking to. Rings needs a particular finish to break in with and seal too and more so with age. I would challenge the compression and leak down of using new rings without any type of cylinder treatment of an old cylinder. I question his entire knowledge and challenge him to post here. I would not take what he claim seriously.
Glad you're using critical thinking skills and doing research, not just taking me at my word. Not enough people take the time to understand things in depth these days.

That excerpt was published in an engine building manual, Chevrolet Power (5th Edition), the cover is inset in the photo. If you read the entire paragraph, they do indeed discuss the particular finish you describe above, suggesting to use a 400-500 grit stone, "establishing a good cross hatch pattern in the bore."

They follow that bore finishing advice by saying that unless it's absolutely necessary, don't do it (the red underlined passage). Honing a bore with a dingle-ball hone or even the spring-loaded square stones is incredibly imprecise and should be done with appropriate equipment.

If you don't care about the engine and just want to experiment, then by all means, go for it, enjoy yourself and prosper! Any engine I put in any of my vehicles would go to an engine machinist, since they have the equipment, training, and experience to do it properly. For my money, there just isn't a good reason to use post-apocalyptic engine machining methods if you don't absolutely need to.
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