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Old 06-18-2020, 10:55 AM   #2201
T-37
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
A fresh air system just focuses on turbine wheel speed so the throttle plate would still close and create vacuum.



It would be very short lived. I’ve used ALS before to launch my car and if I held it down for more than 3ish seconds I saw the egt gauge go past 1,800 degrees. Granted, I had made it pretty aggressive, but it was making 25 psi sitting still.

If you did a more mild setup it “might” live longer, but it’s a lot of heat.

The fresh air setup is a lot more complex in terms of ECU setup, and you have to fabricate some fun bits, but is considerably nicer to your equipment.


Makes sense, I was forgetting the throttle doesn't need to be jacked.

I had seen these videos a while back that went over setting up the turbosmart system on a 2JZ drift car.



It kind of makes me curious, because I've never seen a subaru header with those small fresh air tubes running to the primaries, even the WRC headers I've seen (maybe I've only seen the rocket ?). Do people usually set them up that way, or would it work as well with just one larger tube into the uppipe?
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Old 06-18-2020, 11:29 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
Makes sense, I was forgetting the throttle doesn't need to be jacked.

I had seen these videos a while back that went over setting up the turbosmart system on a 2JZ drift car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztP1EOVLnk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQCNlVxuU0o

It kind of makes me curious, because I've never seen a subaru header with those small fresh air tubes running to the primaries, even the WRC headers I've seen (maybe I've only seen the rocket ?). Do people usually set them up that way, or would it work as well with just one larger tube into the uppipe?
If you read up on the TS ALS valve they go into detail on how it works. They state you can run the fresh air into the header later, but it works better the closer you get it to the exhaust ports. Granted, they're probably not thinking about the length of a Subaru exhaust before turbo.

This setup is still doing a similar thing as the Haltech ALS I used where it's dumping fuel and retarding timing, but the fresh air is injected to act like a kicked throttle.

A rocket is basically a fresh air system but with fuel injection or some method of including fuel (rotational idle/spark cut/etc) along with a separate chamber that has an ignition source as well (or can). Think of it in stages. Old style antilag was throttle plate kicks, retarded timing, and added fuel. Lots of heat, lots of wear, but basically full boost whenever you wanted via very high turbine speeds. The Turbosmart one is a bit of a hybrid in that it works without the throttle kick, and depending on where you introduce the air it will reduce damage to the exhaust valves and manifold. Then you've got the rocket where the engine isn't really doing much different than normal and you're controlling a secondary chamber that's igniting fuel/air and controlling turbine speed on it's own.

All of it is cool for sure, and I wish I had the resources to build a rocket. That being said, I think the electric turbos in 48v flavor that are trickling out to market will be way more useful in the real world, and way more accessible too.
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Old 06-18-2020, 11:50 AM   #2203
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Wouldn't that fresh air als still be making at least zero manifold pressure with the fresh air valve open? If it was operating under vacuum it would be DEI wouldn't it?

Edit: I've heard of people using the group n booster delete, but it requires a different pedal rod.
Fresh air takes charge out off of the intercooler piping and dumps it into the exhaust manifold (or rocket in the uppipe if you look at old Subaru WRC cars).

The TB is still shut and making vacuum in the manifold, so brakes have vacuum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoky View Post
ALS only, was just curious to test it out and see how it works. Still need to dig into this ECU and the software to understand it better.
So a cyclic misfire, fuel rich, retarded timing....watch your exhaust valves, and the manifolds. Lots of heat and pressure in those primaries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
A fresh air system just focuses on turbine wheel speed so the throttle plate would still close and create vacuum.
Well you can target a boost threshold as well. WRC cars used wheel speed as it made sure they could jack the PR through the roof and not go into surge. We did similarly in the diesel world. We actually used a post engine combustion chamber to spool the turbos in trash trucks (Volvo/Mack TRU engines) in the name of keeping emissions hot. Wheel speed limiting was a real thing for trucks in higher altitudes. I actually have two of their dosing valves sitting in the garage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
It kind of makes me curious, because I've never seen a subaru header with those small fresh air tubes running to the primaries, even the WRC headers I've seen (maybe I've only seen the rocket ?). Do people usually set them up that way, or would it work as well with just one larger tube into the uppipe?
Well our Subaru's unlike all those inline engines, have a lot of tube and mixing for combustion to occur. I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the "rocket" which was basically a backwards RAM jet in the uppipe. So moving closer the to the turbo, with one inlet, reduced the heat effected piping while also reducing thermal losses across all of our piping.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 06-18-2020 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:47 PM   #2204
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Hi guys, I have a classing question also...I have a NA 2005 LEGACY WAGON and have done a few little things like coil overs, sway bars, 17x8 wheels with 235/45-17 tires and headers with a total replacement of exhaust system from there back....by my figuring that puts me in FSP is that correct?
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:03 AM   #2205
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If you still have a catalytic converter, you're legal for STX IIRC with the 17x8's. If you took the cats out then FSP is right.
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Old 06-21-2020, 11:25 AM   #2206
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Hey thanks for the answer...and yes I still have cats because the ecu throws codes if you remove it...havenít figured out how to get around inspection requirements to have one since it is a regular street driven car either...so two fairly difficult things to solve before chucking the cats.
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Old 06-24-2020, 11:58 PM   #2207
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Originally Posted by livinon2wheels View Post
Hey thanks for the answer...and yes I still have cats because the ecu throws codes if you remove it...havenít figured out how to get around inspection requirements to have one since it is a regular street driven car either...so two fairly difficult things to solve before chucking the cats.
It's not hard to remove that CEL code using RomRaider. After that passing inspection is nothing.
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Old 07-05-2020, 08:56 PM   #2208
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For those with 400whp and more. What is your intercooler setup and what kind of IAT do you see on hot days on the track? Trying to get some benchmark to see how my A2W perform.
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Old 07-06-2020, 12:23 AM   #2209
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hey guys im kinda new been on for a while but havent posted i need some seat time . auto cross , track days whatever i can get into at an amatuer level. got a 2.5i 06 impreza , and a 02 em civic. any suggestions , im in long island
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Old 07-06-2020, 02:43 AM   #2210
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hey guys im kinda new been on for a while but havent posted i need some seat time . auto cross , track days whatever i can get into at an amatuer level. got a 2.5i 06 impreza , and a 02 em civic. any suggestions , im in long island
Find an autocross near you and head out to have some fun. Great place to start out. This isn't really a Street Mod question.

Try starting here- https://nyrsccasolo.com/getting-started.html
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Old 07-06-2020, 10:02 AM   #2211
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For those with 400whp and more. What is your intercooler setup and what kind of IAT do you see on hot days on the track? Trying to get some benchmark to see how my A2W perform.
I have a garrett core home brew front mount intercooler. Temp usually stabilizes around 130-135 on a 95 degree ambient day at 26-33 psi. If I bang off the limiter for a while it'll go up to 150, but then goes back down to mid 130's pretty quickly.
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Old 07-07-2020, 12:40 PM   #2212
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For those with 400whp and more. What is your intercooler setup and what kind of IAT do you see on hot days on the track? Trying to get some benchmark to see how my A2W perform.
What kind of temps are you seeing? I am using an undersized A2W intercooler (Type 14 on Frozenboost) and its not enough, I am going to have a custom one made to replace it using a bigger Garrett A2W core. My IAT's gain about 8 degrees/sec of WOT and peak in the 145ish range on a 90 degree ambient day for a 45 sec course. I went to the drag strip and hit 175 deg. The rest of the A2W system is oversized btw.
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Old 07-08-2020, 09:20 AM   #2213
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What kind of temps are you seeing? I am using an undersized A2W intercooler (Type 14 on Frozenboost) and its not enough, I am going to have a custom one made to replace it using a bigger Garrett A2W core. My IAT's gain about 8 degrees/sec of WOT and peak in the 145ish range on a 90 degree ambient day for a 45 sec course. I went to the drag strip and hit 175 deg. The rest of the A2W system is oversized btw.

I have the type 26, which seems to be enough, but might require a few mod. CM90 pump, 3/4 hoses, very small rad in front of the car and a bigger one where the backseat is with 2 electric fan. On a 90 day I saw 160 at the end of the course on pump with around 18-19 psi. It's a slow and steady temp climb over the course. I need to increase water flow in the intercooler and increase water cooling capacity, I'll probably add a second water entry and exit to the intercooler.



IAT graph




Pic of the setup:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jxYyhW7itFwMbkBY6
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:24 PM   #2214
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I have the type 26, which seems to be enough, but might require a few mod. CM90 pump, 3/4 hoses, very small rad in front of the car and a bigger one where the backseat is with 2 electric fan. On a 90 day I saw 160 at the end of the course on pump with around 18-19 psi. It's a slow and steady temp climb over the course. I need to increase water flow in the intercooler and increase water cooling capacity, I'll probably add a second water entry and exit to the intercooler.
[/url]
Might be worth temporarily installing some pressure gauges on either side of intercooler to see if you are actually losing flow there before going through the trouble. Do you have a reservoir tank? I have a single 24x12x1 radiator in front and a reservoir tank in the trunk with my pump.
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:50 PM   #2215
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Originally Posted by smoky View Post
I have the type 26, which seems to be enough, but might require a few mod. CM90 pump, 3/4 hoses, very small rad in front of the car and a bigger one where the backseat is with 2 electric fan. On a 90 day I saw 160 at the end of the course on pump with around 18-19 psi. It's a slow and steady temp climb over the course. I need to increase water flow in the intercooler and increase water cooling capacity, I'll probably add a second water entry and exit to the intercooler.
I'd want to see a log of charge air in and out, and H2O temp in and out.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you are actually running both the front and and trunk mounted heat exchanger?

Also that rear exchanger is set up to fail as it is. It's only source of air is those fans, and they aren't even pulling on the entire exchanger but only the area they're directly covering, mind you fans create low velocity near their root (center) and then also consider the size of the pancake motor driving it.



I'd think you'd have far better temp drop on that core with a proper duct and your fans. Let the fans pull on a larger area. Not much that can be done to get you high pressure air infront of the exchanger while mounted in a car with SM rules.
Also, I'm assuming the back seat has to be in for the class rules, no? If so, lay that sucker back and let airflow get in. I'd see about putting a duct through the backseat pass-through, and/or maybe pull the rear speakers and use those as inlets too.

How are you venting hot air out of the trunk? Have you logged the water temp in and out of the rear exchanger on a run? IAT tells hardly any of the picture.
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Old 07-08-2020, 09:39 PM   #2216
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You can ditch the rear seat in SM. I'm not sure on a bulkhead being required though between the driver and radiator. I don't think it is, but I was planning on leaving the corrugated plastic from the factory there as a mild safety barrier in case anything went pop.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:58 AM   #2217
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Quote:
So if I'm understanding correctly, you are actually running both the front and and trunk mounted heat exchanger?

Yes that's correct, at first I was running only the one in the backseat position in the car, now running both, but pretty sure I'll need a bigger rad in front.



I've made a xilion test with better quality/power fan, push/pull setup, etc. I now have a proper fully sealed shroud in pull mode. These fan mostly help cool down between runs. I open the trunk and it takes about 10min. to get back to ambient temp without ice. If you need faster cool down you can fill it up with ice.



On normal use the IAT temp are usually around 15-20F over water temps even at higher boost level. and water temp rise about 20F during an autocross run. It's the first time I can properly log temp with the new ECU. I have a water temp reading after it goes through the core and the front rad. Water temps reads around 105 - 110 at the end.


So my guess is that there is stagnant water in the core the way the inlet and outlet is setup and that's why I see temp going much higher than water temp. I'm also adding a pressure gauge to the system this week to monitor pressure and try improving water flow.



Any ideas are welcome
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:07 AM   #2218
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You're allowed to replace the trunk, so you can cut as much of the trunk off as you need, or make whatever vents and ducts you want as long as they are part of the "trunk"

Maybe move the rear rad from the seat bulkhead area, and mount it horizontally under the top surface of the trunk with a large hole for inlet (think Porsche 911 intercooler), and cut away the back of the lid for exit flow. And possibly a SP style spoiler at the back of the trunk to create more of a pressure difference across the rad?

Is it legal to use a spoiler AND a wing? Does that count towards wing area?
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:44 PM   #2219
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Is it legal to use a spoiler AND a wing? Does that count towards wing area?
It is, and total wing area has to be under 8 ft2.

excerpt from section K of Street mod. "The total combined surface area of all wings shall not exceed 8 sq. ft. (0.7432 m2) as calculated per the Wing Area
Computation in Section 12. The number of wing elements is limited to
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Old 07-09-2020, 01:58 PM   #2220
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It is, and total wing area has to be under 8 ft2.

excerpt from section K of Street mod. "The total combined surface area of all wings shall not exceed 8 sq. ft. (0.7432 m2) as calculated per the Wing Area
Computation in Section 12. The number of wing elements is limited to
two (2)."
Spoiler does not equal wing. Spoiler and wing are allowed via SP and SM rules, so you can make your spoiler the max size as it is in SP without affecting SM wing size limitations.

The low pressure zone behind the car is generally enough to pull air out though without a spoiler.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:54 AM   #2221
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Spoiler does not equal wing. Spoiler and wing are allowed via SP and SM rules, so you can make your spoiler the max size as it is in SP without affecting SM wing size limitations.
The low pressure zone behind the car is generally enough to pull air out though without a spoiler.

I've made a test doing 2 holes in the rear of the trunk, but as soon as you open a window you get air in the car from the back, which is pretty much exhaust fume. I though about adding louvers on the top of the trunk, not sure it would work better. I think you need a way to get a good source of air in the car for this to work. Not sure it can be done with SM rules. Some type of naca duct somewhere maybe or fit the hood scoop on the roof of the car
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Old 07-11-2020, 08:49 AM   #2222
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:24 PM   #2223
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Any ideas are welcome
I'd want data before I started making suggestions, beyond getting some proper ducting on that rear exchanger.
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