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Old 02-08-2021, 02:11 PM   #551
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Around here, a clean title 2013 BRZ without too many miles goes for $15k still.

I don't see the prices dropping even with the new version because its not Turbo and people still use these for competition.

Oh, and a 2013 Forester or Outback goes for less then a 2013 BRZ.
I guess I was thinking about it from the perspective of the Forester or Outback would be the daily, and the BRZ the fun weekender, so you want the better features on that.

I daily the BRZ (almost 3 years now). the wife hates riding in it though, especially since she got the Forester, she feels it's too low to the ground. so I only get to drive the BRZ when I am commuting.
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Old 02-08-2021, 06:13 PM   #552
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Daily driver is a different story, but the BRZ/FRS/86 has turned into one of the few cars that can be used every day getting good mileage and fitting plenty of cargo while still being a real 2 door sports car. That combined with the fact they are so commonly used for track and autocross use, they are really holding value well.

Miata's are holding value well lately too, hard to find NC's under $10k let alone ND's. But they are less likely to be dailies or "only" cars.
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Old 02-12-2021, 06:25 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Around here, a clean title 2013 BRZ without too many miles goes for $15k still.

I don't see the prices dropping even with the new version because its not Turbo and people still use these for competition.

Oh, and a 2013 Forester or Outback goes for less then a 2013 BRZ.
Yeah I got $17k for my tastefully modded '13 Limited with 26k miles when I sold it privately in '18. They're tough to find in my area, it sold in about a week or two. If I get another one though it'll definitely be a '22+...I'm all set with the torque dip, although I haven't driven a '17+ yet.
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Old 02-12-2021, 02:45 PM   #554
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a used BRZ is about $10,000 less than a new BRZ. even low mileage. especially with a new body coming out, the price of a used one will drop precipitously next year.

a used Forester or Outback is maybe $2,000 less than a new Forester or Outback, the price is close enough that you end up paying the same for the used car thanks to the higher interest rates they charge for used.

so the 3rd option is the best option: used BRZ, and new Forester, or Outback.
Wow, yeah, cargurus seems to think a 3 year old BRZ with 10k miles should be only $22k.

And I've no interested in that one after seeing what the improvements on the new one.
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Old 02-28-2021, 11:35 AM   #555
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Default Discussion: Diminishing Market for Performance + Utility Vehicles?

According to this article they make it seem as if Subaru is justifying not offering a performance vehicle that isn't lifted or isn't a coupe.

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...ubaru-brz.html

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The brand also says it sees a lot of current Subaru SUV owners picking up the BRZ as a second car. All of this adds up to the brand focusing on two basic segments moving forward: SUVs, and sports cars.
I was hoping to discuss if this has always been a changing landscape that has just snuck up on us? Or if the landscape is just now beginning to change? Or if this is what it will become as a standard: Two vehicles, one that's practical and one that's actually fun to drive.

I know a lot of us loved Subaru because at one point you could have a turbo Boxer with a manual and 5 doors (or truck bed in the Baja's case). But those days are gone and nothing has really replaced them. Most of us have talked about having two vehicles, but only because it seems as though we're being forced to not have an all-in-one like things used to be.
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Old 02-28-2021, 11:56 AM   #556
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According to this article they make it seem as if Subaru is justifying not offering a performance vehicle that isn't lifted or isn't a coupe.

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...ubaru-brz.html



I was hoping to discuss if this has always been a changing landscape that has just snuck up on us? Or if the landscape is just now beginning to change? Or if this is what it will become as a standard: Two vehicles, one that's practical and one that's actually fun to drive.

I know a lot of us loved Subaru because at one point you could have a turbo Boxer with a manual and 5 doors (or truck bed in the Baja's case). But those days are gone and nothing has really replaced them. Most of us have talked about having two vehicles, but only because it seems as though we're being forced to not have an all-in-one like things used to be.
You can't discuss that here. Most favor a do all vehicle including rear facers and 4 doors as their fun car see: YARIS GR

Subaru making the WRX a slightly smaller Legacy moot that premise anyway. Looking at sales between the BRZ and WRX/STI, not sure what autoguide is remotely talking about. Fantasy Subaru?
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Old 02-28-2021, 03:48 PM   #557
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According to this article they make it seem as if Subaru is justifying not offering a performance vehicle that isn't lifted or isn't a coupe.

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...ubaru-brz.html



I was hoping to discuss if this has always been a changing landscape that has just snuck up on us? Or if the landscape is just now beginning to change? Or if this is what it will become as a standard: Two vehicles, one that's practical and one that's actually fun to drive.

I know a lot of us loved Subaru because at one point you could have a turbo Boxer with a manual and 5 doors (or truck bed in the Baja's case). But those days are gone and nothing has really replaced them. Most of us have talked about having two vehicles, but only because it seems as though we're being forced to not have an all-in-one like things used to be.
itís nothing new at all. Old school dudes in the 50ís and 60ís had the work car or DD, then had their I donít know, Gran Torino in the garage for Sunday driving. That car they kept for a generation, handed down to their kid, etc. Today the lexicon is new-new. For me, Iíll never understand DDíing some 30k or over. Itís just dumb economically. If you have one car well it canít do it all, sorry. You are going to lose there. And you are also racking up all the miles on it so it wonít last the test of time. Plenty are happy about this, new-new is a way of life to them. New car every 2-3 years, new phone every year, I mean geez do they keep anything any longer? Wife be all ďthis furniture is 3 years old itís time for new-new!Ē No thought or consideration for their super consuming lifestyle, the land fills, nor anything else. YOLO DUDE!

Mathematically, or financially it worked out for me to have multiple vehicles. One donkey, the DD, low cost, compact, fuel efficient commuter to do all the mundane driving in. Having owned some nice cars, IMO, commuting in bumper to bumper in Honda Fit or a Ferrari is no different, the driving just flat out sucks. Your expensive sports car or performance car costs so much now it doesnít make any sense to drive that every day. Buy an Impreza, a Civic, a Fit, Corolla, something cheap, fuel efficient, and reliable. Rack the F out of the miles on that thing. Then your expensive car or truck, will last you 3X, 4X or 5X as long. Swap the cheap thing out every 5-7 years when the miles are high. Donít swap out the thing that is 30k, 40k, 50k, etc. Keep that mfíer for 10, 15 or 20 years. The math checks out. Plus you have redundancy so your life doesnít skip a beat. You are heading to work, your DD wonít start or has a problem. No big deal. Grab the fob to the weekender and you wonít even be late to work. Donít need to rent a car, or deal with drama. Just have the DD fixed and you donít skip a beat.

What has changed is people want one vehicle to do EVERYTHING. Well for many enthusiasts that is never going to work. Youíll get big compromises there. I would love to have a M2C, and I prefer to buy brand new. I can afford to go to BMW tomorrow and buy one. But it would be my only car. I ask myself, you want daily something like that? Or would you want to keep it long term and make it my Gran Torino like the muscle guys did decades ago? Having a truck or wagon or something to drive every day while their Chevelle or tricked out Charger sits pristine in the garage to drive on the weekends, all sparking clean and underneath a car cover. Me, Iíd rather have multiple vehicles that cost less, that do different things and functions than one vehicle. Iím going to end up with 3. A super efficient compact DD hatch. A compact truck. And a performance/sports vehicle. It takes patience, dedication but neither my truck nor my DD has a ton of miles on them because the mileage is split. Truck will last 20 years. DD, 10-15, and my performance car (new BRZ, STI, or rumored hot hatch from Booby/Toyo) will last me the rest of my life. If you cut out new-new, you can have a whole fleet. I realized this in 2009. Now I have 6 vehicles and about to add a 7th. One at a time.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:25 PM   #558
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itís nothing new at all. Old school dudes in the 50ís and 60ís had the work car or DD, then had their I donít know, Gran Torino in the garage for Sunday driving. That car they kept for a generation, handed down to their kid, etc. Today the lexicon is new-new. For me, Iíll never understand DDíing some 30k or over. Itís just dumb economically. If you have one car well it canít do it all, sorry. You are going to lose there. And you are also racking up all the miles on it so it wonít last the test of time. Plenty are happy about this, new-new is a way of life to them. New car every 2-3 years, new phone every year, I mean geez do they keep anything any longer? Wife be all ďthis furniture is 3 years old itís time for new-new!Ē No thought or consideration for their super consuming lifestyle, the land fills, nor anything else. YOLO DUDE!

Mathematically, or financially it worked out for me to have multiple vehicles. One donkey, the DD, low cost, compact, fuel efficient commuter to do all the mundane driving in. Having owned some nice cars, IMO, commuting in bumper to bumper in Honda Fit or a Ferrari is no different, the driving just flat out sucks. Your expensive sports car or performance car costs so much now it doesnít make any sense to drive that every day. Buy an Impreza, a Civic, a Fit, Corolla, something cheap, fuel efficient, and reliable. Rack the F out of the miles on that thing. Then your expensive car or truck, will last you 3X, 4X or 5X as long. Swap the cheap thing out every 5-7 years when the miles are high. Donít swap out the thing that is 30k, 40k, 50k, etc. Keep that mfíer for 10, 15 or 20 years. The math checks out. Plus you have redundancy so your life doesnít skip a beat. You are heading to work, your DD wonít start or has a problem. No big deal. Grab the fob to the weekender and you wonít even be late to work. Donít need to rent a car, or deal with drama. Just have the DD fixed and you donít skip a beat.

What has changed is people want one vehicle to do EVERYTHING. Well for many enthusiasts that is never going to work. Youíll get big compromises there. I would love to have a M2C, and I prefer to buy brand new. I can afford to go to BMW tomorrow and buy one. But it would be my only car. I ask myself, you want daily something like that? Or would you want to keep it long term and make it my Gran Torino like the muscle guys did decades ago? Having a truck or wagon or something to drive every day while their Chevelle or tricked out Charger sits pristine in the garage to drive on the weekends, all sparking clean and underneath a car cover. Me, Iíd rather have multiple vehicles that cost less, that do different things and functions than one vehicle. Iím going to end up with 3. A super efficient compact DD hatch. A compact truck. And a performance/sports vehicle. It takes patience, dedication but neither my truck nor my DD has a ton of miles on them because the mileage is split. Truck will last 20 years. DD, 10-15, and my performance car (new BRZ, STI, or rumored hot hatch from Booby/Toyo) will last me the rest of my life. If you cut out new-new, you can have a whole fleet. I realized this in 2009. Now I have 6 vehicles and about to add a 7th. One at a time.
I agree in theory but our driveway is so short we'd have to park a 3rd car on the street which I don't want to do. So my Si sedan serves as work and fun car, it's as nice a car as I'd want to subject to 25k miles a year and annual salt baths.
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:43 PM   #559
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A WRX sedan serves 99% of my needs. If I need something else it is rare, I don't have an option of owning multiple vehicles for multiple purposes. It will be interesting to see what the 2022 comes with, I suspect it looks a lot like the photos we saw coming out of Japan, with a subtle revision to the Impreza interior. The Levorg probably shows us most of what the interior is. I am betting the drivetrain for the standard WRX is not much different from the current one. Does the STI get 400 hp I doubt it. I was just looking at what it took Subaru to do the limited edition S209. That being the case and limited budget, I don't think we see 400 hp unless it is a special edition car.

What I don't like about the current WRX indicators out of Japan is that it just looks like they added some wider wheel arches, it does not look like they changed the four corners of the car like the current WRX. It looks a lot to me like they have a new front and rear end with fender flares on the stock body panels. What will be a decider for me is now power but, driving feel, shifter feel, steering feel, those connecting points. If it has 270 hp and has a good smooth power delivery I am fine with that, but it needs to connect emotionally and feel wise to the road. If it does not not, I like my current WRX really well in those regards.
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:10 AM   #560
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I agree in theory but our driveway is so short we'd have to park a 3rd car on the street which I don't want to do. So my Si sedan serves as work and fun car, it's as nice a car as I'd want to subject to 25k miles a year and annual salt baths.
No garage? Or just no driveway?

I get your deal. Iíd be in a WRX then. Lower cost, still got performance, AWD, etc. I just want to see another body style option.
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:10 AM   #561
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No garage? Or just no driveway?

I get your deal. Iíd be in a WRX then. Lower cost, still got performance, AWD, etc. I just want to see another body style option.
We have a two car garage, but itís tight and if thereís a car in the driveway itís a pain to maneuver out, plus the in laws are always visiting and parking (badly) in the driveway. Weíre thinking of buying a vacation home in New Hampshire and then I could park a sports car there for weekends, thatíd be awesome.
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Old 03-24-2021, 12:29 PM   #562
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Toyota seems to be delaying the release of the gr86 to differentiate its characteristics from the brz. they don't want it to be a carbon copy of the brz. there are also rumors suggesting a GRMN 86 coming out after the initial release of the 86. what will that mean for the brz and the possible ts and STI variants. toyota maybe underestimating what subaru may be willing to do to the brz if toyota forces their hand. Subaru has tuners too
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Old 03-24-2021, 12:48 PM   #563
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Create sibling rivalry. They did that with the Supra / Z4 but those were different demographics.
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Old 03-24-2021, 05:33 PM   #564
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Toyota seems to be delaying the release of the gr86 to differentiate its characteristics from the brz. they don't want it to be a carbon copy of the brz. there are also rumors suggesting a GRMN 86 coming out after the initial release of the 86. what will that mean for the brz and the possible ts and STI variants. toyota maybe underestimating what subaru may be willing to do to the brz if toyota forces their hand. Subaru has tuners too
To me, that sounds fishy. Either Toyota is waiting to see if the market restarts after Covid, and not waste a lot of $$ building a car that won't sell anymore, OR, they risk losing out on the pent up demand. Either way, I doubt the 86 will be the "winner" of this round if it's a good post-Covid year. They might end up the "not loser" if it's bad.
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Old 03-24-2021, 06:45 PM   #565
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To me, that sounds fishy. Either Toyota is waiting to see if the market restarts after Covid, and not waste a lot of $$ building a car that won't sell anymore, OR, they risk losing out on the pent up demand. Either way, I doubt the 86 will be the "winner" of this round if it's a good post-Covid year. They might end up the "not loser" if it's bad.
Actually, sports cars are selling quite well, all things considered.
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Old 03-24-2021, 07:57 PM   #566
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Actually, sports cars are selling quite well, all things considered.
That could be - I didn't say they weren't. I was just saying that I think Toyota made the wrong call to delay the 86..
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Old 03-24-2021, 08:13 PM   #567
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I just don't see the "risk". The biggest risk they took was releasing the car at all and fortunately it worked out for them. So it's fine if they want to stagger the higher production 86 six months or so apart from the limited production BRZ.

The BRZ was never meant to be the bread winner. Had the 86 not done so well then the BRZ would've been axed right away, with the 86 following soon after. Subaru was fine with making it a limited production run. So they're also fine with debuting it and selling it sooner since it'll stand as more of a preview of things to come. I believe the same happened with the BMW Z4 and the Toyota Supra.
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Old 03-25-2021, 03:24 AM   #568
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I just don't see the "risk". The biggest risk they took was releasing the car at all and fortunately it worked out for them. So it's fine if they want to stagger the higher production 86 six months or so apart from the limited production BRZ.

The BRZ was never meant to be the bread winner. Had the 86 not done so well then the BRZ would've been axed right away, with the 86 following soon after. Subaru was fine with making it a limited production run. So they're also fine with debuting it and selling it sooner since it'll stand as more of a preview of things to come. I believe the same happened with the BMW Z4 and the Toyota Supra.
Toyota sells a much higher volume of cars than Subaru. That = them selling more 86ís than Subaru sells BRZís. More dealerships, more volume, blah blah.

I think the new BRZ looks tattays and there isnít much Toyota can do to it without spending big $ Different bumper, headlights/tail lights, thatís about it. And different options. Subaru builds the fíer and itís their engine so I donít know why anyone would wait, unless itís to see if Toyo releases a trim with a performance pack.
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Old 03-25-2021, 07:20 AM   #569
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If Toyota wants their 86 to appear to be more "fun" then they could make it more tail-happy and add a louder exhaust. And offer more fun colors, as they tend to do anyway.

Maybe they could reinforce the chassis on the sides, specifically the doors, since they'll be getting wrapped around poles and trees.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:43 AM   #570
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Toyota sells a much higher volume of cars than Subaru. That = them selling more 86's than Subaru sells BRZ's. More dealerships, more volume, blah blah.
2020 from goodcarbadcar:
BRZ: 2267
86: 2476
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:57 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by SoDealer View Post
2020 from goodcarbadcar:
BRZ: 2267
86: 2476
That's not a massive difference. Toyota also sells more AT versions than Subaru (per 2018 numbers).

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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
If Toyota wants their 86 to appear to be more "fun" then they could make it more tail-happy and add a louder exhaust. And offer more fun colors, as they tend to do anyway.

Maybe they could reinforce the chassis on the sides, specifically the doors, since they'll be getting wrapped around poles and trees.
Isn't that what they did with the FR-S, with slightly better rear response? How much tail happiness do they want? They had a TRD exhaust that was boomy and springs that made it bouncy.

Last edited by subyski; 03-25-2021 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 03-25-2021, 11:34 AM   #572
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Definitely bouncier springs. TRD exhaust was on different, limited edition models. I guess I was thinking that they could make that stuff standard. Like TRD-style exhausts fur errbody.

But, as mentioned, even different taillights would be good. Make them look different from the back. Possibly different trunks too? Seems a bit extra to me, but it's Toyota's money.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:04 PM   #573
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2020 from goodcarbadcar:
BRZ: 2267
86: 2476

Ah dude, you again. How about since day 1 until now since that was what i was referring to.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:23 PM   #574
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I can't wait to see the BRZ in person. IMO it looks great in photos.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:49 PM   #575
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The US sales have been more easily balanced since 2018. (10k vs 8.5k).

Total volume is a different story. Since 2012, sales were 78k Toyota vs 42k Subaru.
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