Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Water/Methanol Injection, Nitrous & Intercooler Cooling

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-28-2006, 12:58 PM   #51
azn2nr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 35276
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Default

no but ill get one if i get a spray setup.

i know im running lean because its logical and i did a VE calculation adn it came out about 13.1 when an exact setup to mine did the same afr on the dyno.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
azn2nr is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 04-02-2006, 09:20 AM   #52
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azn2nr
i dont have em (yet) and am running really lean. would an untuned controler based kit help me out on a 25% alcky mix??
I would highly suggest getting some form of engine management that can tune fuel, timing and boost curves. You'll get the most out of your system that way, and it will be safer. Even a Super AFC would be better than nothing.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2006, 03:33 PM   #53
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azn2nr
i dont have em (yet) and am running really lean. would an untuned controler based kit help me out on a 25% alcky mix??
It would only help in the areas where it is spraying, and it would probably put you into a WAAAAAAAAAAAY too rich situation, which can cause misfires and even bore wash.
Get EM asap, or at the minimum, fix whatever the problem is that is making you run so lean.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2006, 10:29 AM   #54
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Gentlemen and Ladies,

I am leaving on a deployment for six months, I will return in November. I will try to answer posts, PM's and keep up with this thread when and where I get internet service. Although being an a submarine kinda precludes getting unclassified internet. So when I hit liberty ports, I will try to check the thread and the rest of the site out to see what I have missed. I am sure this thread is in good hands with davenow, and the other water/meth veterans. Have fun. Remember, drugs are good.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2006, 11:18 PM   #55
psmBoXer
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 90354
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: International
Vehicle:
2018 STI
WRBP

Default

Very nice write up! You guys should also check www.alkycontrol.com Julio is a really nice guy and recently installed the kit on my car. Getting it tuned friday
psmBoXer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2006, 03:15 AM   #56
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Yeah I dont make it into this forum often enough, so if you have any questions, feel free to post them then PM me to let me know I need to come back and answer them.

I would rather you post them here, so that the info is out there for everyone to see, instead of just one person
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2006, 09:59 PM   #57
F4Turbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 43846
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Vehicle:
2006 Aspen White STI
86 AE86 GTS 06 WW Evo IX

Default

Dave, is there any issue with "maintenance" in regards to this sort of setup? Take for example the SMC, how long are the pumps supposed to last, the lines, are any of the pieces of these setups in need of some sort of maintenance or replacement within a period of time? I'm thinking like 2-3 years, or are these systems a, "use it for a few years and buy a new one"?

Thanks. (btw Dave, you and Donkey are awesome)

Michael
F4Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2006, 12:03 AM   #58
Ultimate Collision Center
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 69072
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Peekskill
Default

Like anything, you need to check them every year and just go over all the connections...
Ultimate Collision Center is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2006, 02:49 AM   #59
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Yup, just look the system over once a week or so. Heck once a month is probably fine.
It only takes 30 sec, what you are looking for is any screws backing themselved out of pumps and such, leaks (look for wet spots or dirt sticking to any junctions) and any obvious wiring issues. If you live in a corrosive enviro, keep an eye on the ground point.
My SMC kit was in use for over a year, and is now in another car, still in use today.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2006, 04:31 PM   #60
EvolvedAK
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 100354
Join Date: Nov 2005
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Vehicle:
2002 Chevy2DLevee
AKLGT's Living Accessory

Default

Just wanted to thank DonkeyPunch and Davenow for the awsome write up on Alky. I have been considering to purchase alky with my up,dp,cat,utec combo as a friend of mine has it and hit 13.1 at the track with his 03'. This was very informative thread and explained every question i had. Thanks guys
EvolvedAK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2006, 03:05 AM   #61
vipermodder
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122965
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

is it possible to mix nitromethane in for even more power??
vipermodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2006, 10:24 AM   #62
Blennophobic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25886
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ottawa area
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Rally Blue
- sold, waiting for 2015s

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermodder
is it possible to mix nitromethane in for even more power??
Yes, Snow Performance sells it as an additive for the injection mix. There was quite a lot of discussion about it on the Aquamist Forum, but it seems to be down right now.

Haven't tried it myself, but will get around to it.

-Steve.
Blennophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2006, 11:38 PM   #63
subenerd
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72630
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CA
Default

I live in CA with access to 91 pump gas. I have TXS turboback exhaust w/hf cat/standard 2.5" muffler, catless uppipe, ic hoses, TXS TMIC and AP.

I really want to upgrade my turbo to something bigger like a vf22 or fp18g but the big limitation is the 91 gas.

If I go with meth/alky injection with bigger turbo I would run multiple protuned maps, a conservative 91 map and another hi boost alky map...

would meth/alky max out the vf22? or should I go with the 18g?

I really want something that hits hard at 4000 rpms and holds boost close to redline. I dont want to buy a turbo, then want something bigger right away. Any input much appreciated!
subenerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2006, 03:10 AM   #64
keoni004
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 69652
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Vehicle:
1998 Land Rover
Discovery

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subenerd View Post
I live in CA with access to 91 pump gas. I have TXS turboback exhaust w/hf cat/standard 2.5" muffler, catless uppipe, ic hoses, TXS TMIC and AP.

I really want to upgrade my turbo to something bigger like a vf22 or fp18g but the big limitation is the 91 gas.

If I go with meth/alky injection with bigger turbo I would run multiple protuned maps, a conservative 91 map and another hi boost alky map...

would meth/alky max out the vf22? or should I go with the 18g?

I really want something that hits hard at 4000 rpms and holds boost close to redline. I dont want to buy a turbo, then want something bigger right away. Any input much appreciated!

If I might add a lame side-note for the CA smog-conscious folks in the room...anyone in CA pass the smogs with alky going? I'm thinking of doing a similar mod with a big 16g, but I'm still concerned about passing the smog when the "man" comes knocking.
keoni004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2006, 03:26 PM   #65
=LPR=
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 127529
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: so cal
Vehicle:
05 wrx
aspen white

Default

i know im kinda bringing this thread back from the dead a bit but i have 1 kinda n00b question.

first of all, i have researched alot about nitrous for my civic, decided against it and am selling the vic to buy a wrx. i plan on doing AI but my question is:

What happens when you shift? i know with my EM on my civic (built k24 with k-pro) i can set the nitrous to shut off before my shift point like 2-300 rpm before so when i let of the gas to shift im not still spraying. is there a feature like that with the SMC kit or something? and does it matter if you have a BOV?

thanks in advance.
=LPR= is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 09:50 AM   #66
Blennophobic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25886
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ottawa area
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Rally Blue
- sold, waiting for 2015s

Default

I haven't heard of anyone having a problem during shifts because WI is controlled by either boost or MAF voltage, so when you let off to shift, the WI is also cut off. What I have had issue with is hitting the rev limiter which causes backfire when the fuel is cut off. I'm not aware of any fix for this problem. I use the Snow Performance MAF kit BTW.

-Steve.
Blennophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 11:12 AM   #67
=LPR=
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 127529
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: so cal
Vehicle:
05 wrx
aspen white

Default

ok thats what i figured, i just wasnt sure if there was something in the tuning that could be done to be extra safe. thanks
=LPR= is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 11:13 PM   #68
WRXRallyBlue
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48831
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno
Vehicle:
2002 Protuned Wagon
Bugeyes Forever

Default

Thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread

Would anyone care to elaborate on the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of running just water?

I understand it would be better and not that much more expensive to run meth, or even 50/50, but I'm curious.

Thanks
WRXRallyBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 11:56 PM   #69
hippy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36528
Join Date: May 2003
Location: florida
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza Wrx
Silver

Default

Wrx and sti engines run a/f ratios richer then 12 to 1 in an effort to avoid knock. The extra fuel beyond 12 to 1(and possibly even some at 12 to 1) is never lit. It absorbs heat from different things, then gets pushed out the exhaust.

The purpose of water injection is also to help avoid knock. Water can absorb a lot more heat then fuel, so much less needs to be injected to get the same cooling effect as a given amount of fuel. This means that a givem amount of it should help cool down everything it touches more then fuel. At the same time, water cannot be lit. Having a buffer that can't take a little air and catch on fire should make the absorbtion of heat and slowing of combustion more even then if a fuel was used. Imo water injection is very useful for preventing knock and making extra power.

Some people say meth helps produce more power then water, but I have seen no evidence supporting this concept. Imo people say this because of one or both of two things. The first would be that most systems on the market have a lot less adjustability/progressive flow then they let people beleive, and in turn are not really ment to run 100% water. The second would be that these systems come with 1 size nozzle most of the time, and even though the manufacturer says the nozzle is fine for every setup because of their magical controller, the truth is that if you run more or less water, the results wouldn't be the same as if you ran a given amount of water. Either way, people end up using these systems with nozzles which are too big for 100% water, and get better results when they try and run 50/50 or 100% meth. They assume that the results are because of the alc working better then the water, when the truth is that the car might just be running better from having half as much water thrown at it. Maybe these people would have gotten better results with 100% water if they just used a smaller nozzle? The world will probably never know since from what I've seen none of the people who claim better results with 50/50 or 100% meth over water have ever tried this.

I'm not saying that alc can't help produce a good amount of power, or that you can't get better performance with 50/50 compared to 100% water on every setup. I really wouldn't know either way. I'm just sayin that I think many people don't have good experiences with water for one reason or anothe, and it makes them think meth or a mix is better in some way when it might not be. Course I've tuned my car on a few different mixes including 100% of eth, meth, water, and 50/50, and I run 100% water.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 11-13-2006 at 12:55 AM.
hippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 01:27 AM   #70
bcblues
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17256
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: America's Outback
Vehicle:
18 Outback
on the road....

Default

I developed a map for 50-50, and a separate map to 100% water (for AX). I also dumped a gallon of toulene into the gas tank when AX, so my tune was for 100 octane. I saw a 20 whp increase when running 50-50, although that could be due to the far greater time I spent developing the 50-50 map. I saw very similar torque figures.

I think that Hippy is onto something, as I saw very little difference in the optimum fueling maps of the 50-50 vs all-H2O. That would make sense if the main benefit was simply pulling heat out of the chamber and buffering combustion. Still, that does not explain the difference in HP that I routinely see (according to my Gtech). BTW, I also see that with my 18g, so it is not just the stock turbo running out of breath at higher rpm.
bcblues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 02:49 AM   #71
WRXRallyBlue
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48831
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno
Vehicle:
2002 Protuned Wagon
Bugeyes Forever

Default

Thanks guys. Anyone else have input?
WRXRallyBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 08:24 AM   #72
hippy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36528
Join Date: May 2003
Location: florida
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza Wrx
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcblues View Post
...Still, that does not explain the difference in HP that I routinely see (according to my Gtech)....
Did you use the same nozzle for the 50/50 mix and for 100% water? Do you have a single stage kit that bases it's flow on boost? Either or both of these would explain why you see more power with 50/50. You saying that you see more power with 50/50 is exactly what I was talkin about above. Have you ever thought that 6gph of water might be too much at 4000rpm? Maybe that's why 3gph of water and 3gph of alc works better then 6gph of water? Did you ever try tuning your system at it's "low" flow with 100% water? Imagine that your car normally runs 1000cc of fuel at 4000rpm, and your nozzle puts out 325cc(6gph I think?) at max flow. Running 675cc of petrol and 325cc of water is a little different then running 675cc of petrol, 163cc of alc, and 163cc of water. Maybe if ya ran 163cc of water and 675cc of petrol, you'd get better results then 325cc of water and 675cc of petrol? Lets take a look at the water/fuel ratios on these three scenarios though, and see why you might get better results with 1 then another.

Code:
petrol           water           alc               water/fuel ratio    a/f ratio    air/liquid ratio
 1000            325              0                         33%            12                9-1
 1000            163              0                         16%            12              10.3-1
 1000            163            163                        14%            12              10.5-1
 675              325             0                          48%            12                8.1-1
 675              163             0                          24%            12                9.7-1
 675              163            163                        19%            12                10.1-1
As seen above, running 50/50 is a good way to lower the water to fuel percent while running a given amount of injection since it lowers the water/fuel ratio more then cutting the amount of water in half. At the same time, it's easier to add alc then even petrol without losing power because of the stoichometric a/f ratio of alc. If we add 300cc of alc, we could remove 200-300cc of petrol and get the same or a leaner a/f reading(just an example, numbers might not be so accurate). This makes it easier for a simple setup(like any on off kit, or a single stage boost based controller kit) to run 50/50 more efficiently then water, since you can't add as much water as you want and remove the same amount or less petrol and expect everything to be ok. This is why 50/50 is often used as a fix for simple kits and/or a large nozzle, and the bump in power difference between 50/50 and 100% water on a given setup might reflect this. Ie-Setups which are designed to run 100% water efficiently and have the right size nozzle are more likely to see less of a difference between injection mixes then setups which are using the wrong size nozzle and/or are simple in design.

Imo 50/50 might produce more power on a given setup then 100% water, but that depends on many many things. If it does produce more power, it probably has more to do with too much water being injected b4, or that the alc is better then the fuel being used. Ie-If you're gonna run really high octane fuel, water injection will probably help produce more power then a mix with the right setup. Course this is all just my opinion from what I've seen/heard, and I'm no expert.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 11-13-2006 at 10:36 AM.
hippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 01:13 PM   #73
=LPR=
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 127529
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: so cal
Vehicle:
05 wrx
aspen white

Default

so guys like me in cali with 91 octane would definately be better off going with a 50/50 mix of sorts cause we have crappy fuel and the alc/meth would make that better.

am i correct in saying this???
=LPR= is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #74
bcblues
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17256
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: America's Outback
Vehicle:
18 Outback
on the road....

Default

Hippy: I am running a CoolingMist Stage 2, with the recommended (for my 04 STi) 6gmp jet. It is the M3. The Stage 2 means I have the progressive VariCool controller. I have played with the min/max and gain and I find that what works best for 50-50 is to start spraying earlier (5psi boost) and max earlier (13-15 psi boost) and run full 10 gain. For pure water, I begin injecting at 6-8 psi boost and max at 16, still running full 10 gain. My fueling maps were targeting AFRs of 12 for both 50-50 and 100 tunes. Although I have never really done a back-to-back test with 50-50 vs 100 on the same map, the AFRs and fueling values are really very close. My IDCs are never above 90% (mostly low 80s), that is running 18 psi boost (except for my insane boost creep in higher gears).

When playing with my WI system, I have definitely seen the bog caused by injecting too much water to early. I think I have tuned around that pretty effectively.
bcblues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 08:27 PM   #75
hippy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36528
Join Date: May 2003
Location: florida
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza Wrx
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by =LPR= View Post
so guys like me in cali with 91 octane would definately be better off going with a 50/50 mix of sorts cause we have crappy fuel and the alc/meth would make that better.

am i correct in saying this???
That's not what I said. I was just noting how alc would effectively change the octane of the fuel, and if the results were better with 50/50, that could be the cause. I don't know which would be best for a given setup on a given fuel. It would be easier to run 50/50 effectively then 100% water though.

peace
hippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
water / methanol injection kit -new or used blazin sti Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 3 05-27-2006 08:01 PM
Water/Methanol Injection or Race Fuel or Both ejh25 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 7 03-28-2005 06:35 PM
Derek Devises Water/Methanol Injection mistaboosta Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 2 11-01-2004 05:52 PM
Derek Devises Water/Methanol Injection mistaboosta Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 0 11-01-2004 04:51 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.