|
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
11-01-2011, 11:54 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 298075
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dirty jerzey
Vehicle:2002 wrx silver |
ej255 and ej257 oil squirters ?
should there be and actual oil squirter machined into the block or is the only oil squirter the groove cut in to the rods? this is for the ej25 engines.
any info is apprciated thanks matt
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
|
11-02-2011, 09:08 PM | #2 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 91049
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: WheatRidge,Colorado
Vehicle:2008 wrx wgn charcoal grey |
They are actually on the valve covers.
|
11-02-2011, 09:13 PM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 74907
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: salem, OR
Vehicle:98 cam'd EJ251 Wrx Tranny,slowr than ish |
He's talking about piston oil squirters under the pistons. I don't even know if the EJ255/7 have oil squirters...
~Josh~ |
11-02-2011, 09:16 PM | #4 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 124311
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Knoxville, TN
Vehicle:2006 STi, 03WRX wago 10Tribeca,00 RS,99 Foz |
No oil squirters for the ej205, ej255, or the ej257. Actually the only USDM engine that I know of that had them was the EJ22t.
|
11-02-2011, 09:27 PM | #5 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 298075
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dirty jerzey
Vehicle:2002 wrx silver |
|
11-02-2011, 10:02 PM | #6 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 124311
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Knoxville, TN
Vehicle:2006 STi, 03WRX wago 10Tribeca,00 RS,99 Foz |
That is what some say. It may send some oil spray up to the bottom of the pistons, but I don't think its a very effective method.
|
11-02-2011, 10:06 PM | #7 | |
*** Banned ***
Member#: 199106
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pennsyltucky
Vehicle:PMme 4 Speed Density Patches on OEM ECU |
Quote:
As far as I know, only the 22t's and some 2.0's had them. Should be able to add them to a 2.5 though. |
|
11-02-2011, 10:16 PM | #8 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
notch
pro: don't rob main bearing oil pressure, spray cylinder walls, don't require added machining (unless you bought rods without them) cons: doesn't directly spray the piston their entire time thus reducing piston cooling squirters pros: directly spray the piston for better cooling cons: doesn't add lubrication to the cylinder walls (or at least much less than the notch method), robs oil pressure from the main gallery, thus dropping pressure prior to the rod bearings....to equal out requires a higher pump pressure = more hp required to drive pump and more heat put into your oil |
11-02-2011, 10:29 PM | #9 | |
*** Banned ***
Member#: 199106
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pennsyltucky
Vehicle:PMme 4 Speed Density Patches on OEM ECU |
Quote:
|
|
11-02-2011, 10:45 PM | #10 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 298075
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dirty jerzey
Vehicle:2002 wrx silver |
thanks Homemade wrx. this really cleared up the subject
|
11-02-2011, 10:52 PM | #11 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
Merp, I know that our piston cooling jets cause a rather large drop but how much depends on several things.
As a fluids system; there are a lot of variables that will play into 'how much' of a drop they'll cause; oil (temp and properties), squirter cross-sectional area, pressure at squirter, and then of course main galley volumes...for starters. At work ours are all part of the engine model with some extensive inputs, particularly as ours are electronically controlled PWM pending duty cycle, engine speed, coolant temp and about 15 other variables and models It's actually one of my fun projects at work. However with Subaru's, I'm quite certain that I'd never risk the pressure at the rod bearings to help cool a piston. On a built engine, we don't have to worry about emissions (tight PTW clearance) like we do in a performance Subaru engine. So I'll take the PTW clearance trade-off for healthy rod bearings Last edited by Homemade WRX; 11-02-2011 at 10:58 PM. |
08-13-2020, 10:33 PM | #12 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 260314
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: S central CT, New England
Vehicle:2007 STI silver gray metallic |
What about squirters? When do you really need them?
Micah, (et all) Since we had that brief discussion on FB I have become more interested in determining if fixed squirters are appropriate for me. Then the wiper grooves (or I call them more like "rotating squirters") on some rods (like OEM rods) have them so they discharge more oil directly at the cylinder. There may be true wipers on somebody's rods but I think the groove positioning has more to do with directing or "squirting" oil onto the piston and cylinder than wiping it off the crankshaft's thrust faces.
Before, I've only given stationary "squirters" a passing interest. Obviously, all rod bearings sling oil, but in every direction. Now I'm considering what the rod's optimal thrust clearances should be relative to the bearing clearances. Should my rods have squirter slots or not? Otherwise we are reliant on the oil slung out indiscriminately by the rod bearings. Thrust clearances relate to how fast oil can escape. There's bearing clearances and rod to journal thrust clearances that affect oil loss. The bearing clearances may be the primary governing factor, but these squirter grooves seem to be relevant to Subaru's design, and yet many of my aftermarket rods don't have them! There were fixed squirters supplied off the main journals of the 2.2L engine and someone sells a squirter plate that you add on and feed externally from the main gallery. Added cooling for the piston, for sure, but at what point do you really need to use them? My two sets of Wossner rods are not grooved, nor are my Carillo, Manley I beam, Turbo Tuff's, or my Eagle rods. They are are all un-notched. Only my OEM STI rods, the lightweight H beam Manley's and the Saenz destroker rods are grooved. Obviously, it's easy to add grooves of any shape, size or number. I do not find any correlation regarding the width of the rod's big end (average of .842" (21.37mm) and whether it was slotted. OEM thrust clearance spec's are .0028" to .0130" (a +/- .005" range from .008") The gap limit is .016". The connecting rod big-end widths varied by as much as .005" (.13mm) between brands. A used nitrided crank was .850"-.852". Another new crank the same. My new Manley billet crank measures .851". Cranks were consistently .851 +/- .001". If you want to retain some pressure to direct the oil to the grooves, as it escapes the bearing, then what thrust clearance would be best and what size slots should I add? Micah, I asked you about the grooves or slots in the big end of the rods previously and you said this: I just refer to them as piston oiling grooves or slots. Put very simply, the more oil you can get onto a piston to keep it cool: 1.) The less cam/"barrel" your piston will need ad the crown is a more uniform temp with the skirts 2.) Tighter PTW you can keep, aiding in better sealing 3.) The lighter the piston can be because the material is stronger at cooler temps, thus you need less. We actually would carry out hardness testing to validate piston temps in race engines. Helped us dial in the placement and sizing on the squirters in a cyl. We had one arrangement that could hold up to 16 squirters for one piston. 4.) Tighter ring grooves you can keep and push the top ring further up 5.) The smaller the pin can be 6.) Etc... You should be seeing by now that it all comes down to the material change with temps. I found this 2017 discussion but it wasn't really a discussion of the oiling grooves. |
08-28-2020, 12:24 PM | #13 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
Jiminy Cricket. Didn't we just have this discussion like two or three weeks ago?
Yes, I had oil grooves place on my destroker rods to help direct oil. The slung oil is honestly a crap shoot in regards to cooling a piston. Turn In Concepts and I have been working on an affordable static squirter. Clint has his method, which is cheap, but not ideal enough for my race engine nerdness. My method requires more block work....and honestly, most people are cheap. So was there a specific question that doesn't require me sitting down and doing engineering work for you, while I'm on my work break? |
08-28-2020, 01:04 PM | #14 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 30804
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region:
SWIC
Vehicle:87 Yugo Red |
Quote:
|
|
08-28-2020, 01:30 PM | #15 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
Quote:
E-pen!$ contest I do love how stupid simple you're concept is, and I still think KISS solution could be tweaked to be more ideal. |
|
08-28-2020, 02:48 PM | #16 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 30804
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region:
SWIC
Vehicle:87 Yugo Red |
you and I both know you didn't design that enduro squirter system that was another dude.
|
08-28-2020, 08:48 PM | #17 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 260314
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: S central CT, New England
Vehicle:2007 STI silver gray metallic |
Quote:
I'd say, for road racing in higher powered cars, the subject is quite relevant, but seldom touched on. Rod bearings and pistons seem to be the Achilles heel of our race engines. Doing free engineering work is totally up to you. I can shoot you technical questions all day long. Seems like some of it is seat of the pants guesswork! Too many variables and not enough solid data. Perhaps just confirm or nix some of the specific questions I've already asked?: (Hard numbers are optional) Fixed squirters: at what point do you really need to use them? Should my rods have squirter slots or not? If you want to retain some pressure to direct the oil to the grooves, as it escapes the rod bearing, then what thrust clearance would be best and what size slots should I add (to the rods)? |
|
09-10-2020, 12:13 PM | #18 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
Edit: Whoops, skip this post.
|
09-10-2020, 12:14 PM | #19 | ||
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
Quote:
Fixed squirters: when they're necessary totally depends on your piston program. If you aren't getting custom pistons made to utilize the cooling, it's pointless. You might be able to do better with a 4032 piston that you're pushing beyond it's design temp limit. But in reality, I'd design a lighter 2618 piston, with less cam, and run a tight PTW. This design process takes revisions with testing to dial it in. You basically do a series of hardness checks to compare with annealing and dial in from there. Slots: I would have them if not running squirters. But that should have already been obvious to you as I designed the 3MI Racing rods that you call Saenz (who manufactured them for me). You should do some cross sectional area calcs for the your rod oiling concerns. The slots are a passive means to sling oil in the direction of the piston. Think path of least resistance and that the rod bearing is constantly being fed oil. Quote:
Now answer your texts |
||
10-25-2020, 09:17 PM | #20 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 518500
Join Date: Sep 2020
|
If I could I would but can’t start my own thread yet so here I am
What all do I need to do an sti manifold swap on my 2012 wrx I already have B25 heads and a built motor
|
10-27-2020, 02:29 PM | #21 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!! |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
WTB : LA: ej257 oil pan --- Found one, thanks for looking :) | 2slofouru | Private 'Wanted' Classifieds | 5 | 11-03-2011 11:39 PM |
WTB : EJ255 and EJ257 block cores | 88.jeremy | Private 'Wanted' Classifieds | 14 | 09-12-2011 10:54 AM |
WTB : 2006+ EJ255/EJ257 oil pan | JLee50 | Private 'Wanted' Classifieds | 4 | 12-23-2010 06:17 PM |
WTB : EJ255 and EJ257 block | 88.jeremy | Private 'Wanted' Classifieds | 1 | 12-05-2010 08:14 AM |
is there a differance between the ej255 and ej257 bare block??? | JT's06sti | Built Motor Discussion | 9 | 03-31-2008 04:55 PM |