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Old 11-01-2011, 11:54 PM   #1
monte383sbc
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Default ej255 and ej257 oil squirters ?

should there be and actual oil squirter machined into the block or is the only oil squirter the groove cut in to the rods? this is for the ej25 engines.
any info is apprciated thanks matt
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:08 PM   #2
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They are actually on the valve covers.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:13 PM   #3
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He's talking about piston oil squirters under the pistons. I don't even know if the EJ255/7 have oil squirters...


~Josh~
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:16 PM   #4
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No oil squirters for the ej205, ej255, or the ej257. Actually the only USDM engine that I know of that had them was the EJ22t.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 2006whitesti View Post
No oil squirters for the ej205, ej255, or the ej257. Actually the only USDM engine that I know of that had them was the EJ22t.
thank you thats what i thought. just needed to be cleared up. also does the notch on the rods act as a type of squirter?
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:02 PM   #6
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That is what some say. It may send some oil spray up to the bottom of the pistons, but I don't think its a very effective method.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by monte383sbc View Post
thank you thats what i thought. just needed to be cleared up. also does the notch on the rods act as a type of squirter?
Yep, but not quite the same. I would think more oil from the notch would end up on the bore than on the back of the piston, and the squirter is all going to hit the back of the piston.

As far as I know, only the 22t's and some 2.0's had them. Should be able to add them to a 2.5 though.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:16 PM   #8
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notch
pro: don't rob main bearing oil pressure, spray cylinder walls, don't require added machining (unless you bought rods without them)
cons: doesn't directly spray the piston their entire time thus reducing piston cooling

squirters
pros: directly spray the piston for better cooling
cons: doesn't add lubrication to the cylinder walls (or at least much less than the notch method), robs oil pressure from the main gallery, thus dropping pressure prior to the rod bearings....to equal out requires a higher pump pressure = more hp required to drive pump and more heat put into your oil
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
notch
pro: don't rob main bearing oil pressure, spray cylinder walls, don't require added machining (unless you bought rods without them)
cons: doesn't directly spray the piston their entire time thus reducing piston cooling

squirters
pros: directly spray the piston for better cooling
cons: doesn't add lubrication to the cylinder walls (or at least much less than the notch method), robs oil pressure from the main gallery, thus dropping pressure prior to the rod bearings....to equal out requires a higher pump pressure = more hp required to drive pump and more heat put into your oil
Any idea how much oil pressure / flow they drop? Curious to see if it would be offset by a BB turbo w/ restrictor and/or ditching AVCS.
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:45 PM   #10
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thanks Homemade wrx. this really cleared up the subject
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:52 PM   #11
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Merp, I know that our piston cooling jets cause a rather large drop but how much depends on several things.

As a fluids system; there are a lot of variables that will play into 'how much' of a drop they'll cause; oil (temp and properties), squirter cross-sectional area, pressure at squirter, and then of course main galley volumes...for starters. At work ours are all part of the engine model with some extensive inputs, particularly as ours are electronically controlled PWM pending duty cycle, engine speed, coolant temp and about 15 other variables and models

It's actually one of my fun projects at work.

However with Subaru's, I'm quite certain that I'd never risk the pressure at the rod bearings to help cool a piston. On a built engine, we don't have to worry about emissions (tight PTW clearance) like we do in a performance Subaru engine. So I'll take the PTW clearance trade-off for healthy rod bearings

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 11-02-2011 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:33 PM   #12
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Default What about squirters? When do you really need them?

Micah, (et all) Since we had that brief discussion on FB I have become more interested in determining if fixed squirters are appropriate for me. Then the wiper grooves (or I call them more like "rotating squirters") on some rods (like OEM rods) have them so they discharge more oil directly at the cylinder. There may be true wipers on somebody's rods but I think the groove positioning has more to do with directing or "squirting" oil onto the piston and cylinder than wiping it off the crankshaft's thrust faces.

Before, I've only given stationary "squirters" a passing interest. Obviously, all rod bearings sling oil, but in every direction.
Now I'm considering what the rod's optimal thrust clearances should be relative to the bearing clearances. Should my rods have squirter slots or not? Otherwise we are reliant on the oil slung out indiscriminately by the rod bearings. Thrust clearances relate to how fast oil can escape. There's bearing clearances and rod to journal thrust clearances that affect oil loss. The bearing clearances may be the primary governing factor, but these squirter grooves seem to be relevant to Subaru's design, and yet many of my aftermarket rods don't have them!
There were fixed squirters supplied off the main journals of the 2.2L engine and someone sells a squirter plate that you add on and feed externally from the main gallery. Added cooling for the piston, for sure, but at what point do you really need to use them?

My two sets of Wossner rods are not grooved, nor are my Carillo, Manley I beam, Turbo Tuff's, or my Eagle rods. They are are all un-notched. Only my OEM STI rods, the lightweight H beam Manley's and the Saenz destroker rods are grooved.
Obviously, it's easy to add grooves of any shape, size or number.

I do not find any correlation regarding the width of the rod's big end (average of .842" (21.37mm) and whether it was slotted.
OEM thrust clearance spec's are .0028" to .0130" (a +/- .005" range from .008") The gap limit is .016".
The connecting rod big-end widths varied by as much as .005" (.13mm) between brands.
A used nitrided crank was .850"-.852". Another new crank the same. My new Manley billet crank measures .851". Cranks were consistently .851 +/- .001".
If you want to retain some pressure to direct the oil to the grooves, as it escapes the bearing, then what thrust clearance would be best and what size slots should I add?

Micah,
I asked you about the grooves or slots in the big end of the rods previously and you said this:
I just refer to them as piston oiling grooves or slots.
Put very simply, the more oil you can get onto a piston to keep it cool:
1.) The less cam/"barrel" your piston will need ad the crown is a more uniform temp with the skirts
2.) Tighter PTW you can keep, aiding in better sealing
3.) The lighter the piston can be because the material is stronger at cooler temps, thus you need less. We actually would carry out hardness testing to validate piston temps in race engines. Helped us dial in the placement and sizing on the squirters in a cyl. We had one arrangement that could hold up to 16 squirters for one piston.
4.) Tighter ring grooves you can keep and push the top ring further up
5.) The smaller the pin can be
6.) Etc...
You should be seeing by now that it all comes down to the material change with temps.


I found this 2017 discussion but it wasn't really a discussion of the oiling grooves.
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Old 08-28-2020, 12:24 PM   #13
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Jiminy Cricket. Didn't we just have this discussion like two or three weeks ago?

Yes, I had oil grooves place on my destroker rods to help direct oil. The slung oil is honestly a crap shoot in regards to cooling a piston.

Turn In Concepts and I have been working on an affordable static squirter. Clint has his method, which is cheap, but not ideal enough for my race engine nerdness. My method requires more block work....and honestly, most people are cheap.

So was there a specific question that doesn't require me sitting down and doing engineering work for you, while I'm on my work break?
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Old 08-28-2020, 01:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Jiminy Cricket. Didn't we just have this discussion like two or three weeks ago?

Yes, I had oil grooves place on my destroker rods to help direct oil. The slung oil is honestly a crap shoot in regards to cooling a piston.

Turn In Concepts and I have been working on an affordable static squirter. Clint has his method, which is cheap, but not ideal enough for my race engine nerdness. My method requires more block work....and honestly, most people are cheap.

So was there a specific question that doesn't require me sitting down and doing engineering work for you, while I'm on my work break?
hold up! how is my idea not ideal enough for your race engine nerdness? I think it's a killer idea that would work well.
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Old 08-28-2020, 01:30 PM   #15
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hold up! how is my idea not ideal enough for your race engine nerdness? I think it's a killer idea that would work well.
How many of your oil squirter designs have won endurance races?

E-pen!$ contest

I do love how stupid simple you're concept is, and I still think KISS solution could be tweaked to be more ideal.
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Old 08-28-2020, 02:48 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
How many of your oil squirter designs have won endurance races?

E-pen!$ contest

I do love how stupid simple you're concept is, and I still think KISS solution could be tweaked to be more ideal.
you and I both know you didn't design that enduro squirter system that was another dude.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Jiminy Cricket. Didn't we just have this discussion like two or three weeks ago? ...
So was there a specific question that doesn't require me sitting down and doing engineering work for you, while I'm on my work break?
I asked on a FB Subaru group, and, per usual, I didn't get any hard answers. Is all that you know proprietary? I thought I'd ask here where there may be some more serious players and better discussion and better answers.
I'd say, for road racing in higher powered cars, the subject is quite relevant, but seldom touched on. Rod bearings and pistons seem to be the Achilles heel of our race engines.

Doing free engineering work is totally up to you. I can shoot you technical questions all day long. Seems like some of it is seat of the pants guesswork! Too many variables and not enough solid data.

Perhaps just confirm or nix some of the specific questions I've already asked?: (Hard numbers are optional)
Fixed squirters: at what point do you really need to use them?
Should my rods have squirter slots or not?
If you want to retain some pressure to direct the oil to the grooves, as it escapes the rod bearing, then what thrust clearance would be best and what size slots should I add (to the rods)?
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:13 PM   #18
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Edit: Whoops, skip this post.
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I asked on a FB Subaru group, and, per usual, I didn't get any hard answers. Is all that you know proprietary? I thought I'd ask here where there may be some more serious players and better discussion and better answers.
I'd say, for road racing in higher powered cars, the subject is quite relevant, but seldom touched on. Rod bearings and pistons seem to be the Achilles heel of our race engines.

Doing free engineering work is totally up to you. I can shoot you technical questions all day long. Seems like some of it is seat of the pants guesswork! Too many variables and not enough solid data.

Perhaps just confirm or nix some of the specific questions I've already asked?: (Hard numbers are optional)
Fixed squirters: at what point do you really need to use them?
Should my rods have squirter slots or not?
If you want to retain some pressure to direct the oil to the grooves, as it escapes the rod bearing, then what thrust clearance would be best and what size slots should I add (to the rods)?
Facebook sucks for discussions. I pretty much despise tech talk on there.

Fixed squirters: when they're necessary totally depends on your piston program. If you aren't getting custom pistons made to utilize the cooling, it's pointless. You might be able to do better with a 4032 piston that you're pushing beyond it's design temp limit. But in reality, I'd design a lighter 2618 piston, with less cam, and run a tight PTW. This design process takes revisions with testing to dial it in. You basically do a series of hardness checks to compare with annealing and dial in from there.

Slots: I would have them if not running squirters. But that should have already been obvious to you as I designed the 3MI Racing rods that you call Saenz (who manufactured them for me).

You should do some cross sectional area calcs for the your rod oiling concerns. The slots are a passive means to sling oil in the direction of the piston. Think path of least resistance and that the rod bearing is constantly being fed oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cboggess View Post
you and I both know you didn't design that enduro squirter system that was another dude.

Now answer your texts
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Old 10-25-2020, 09:17 PM   #20
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Default If I could I would but can’t start my own thread yet so here I am

What all do I need to do an sti manifold swap on my 2012 wrx I already have B25 heads and a built motor
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Old 10-27-2020, 02:29 PM   #21
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What all do I need to do an sti manifold swap on my 2012 wrx I already have B25 heads and a built motor
You and definitely in the wrong thread

The manifold will bolt on. Need to address the turbo and intercooler however.
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