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Old 04-20-2008, 12:59 PM   #1
TROLL
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Default 1st Gear Knock? Please check out my logs...

I'm getting this FKC that I cant figure out, hoping someone here can tell me what I'm missing. It happens consistently when I'm at a stoplight and I begin to accelerate, even very lightly. If I accelerate insanely gently (which would have cars honking at me) then it wont happen, but even a slow normal acceleration will cause this.
It also happened once last night in 6th gear going slightly uphill at about 2500 rpm which I also included in this log compilation.
It seems once I'm above 3000 rpm the problem goes away.

excel file here: http://www.bryantroll.com/other/0419Kno ... lation.xls

I just put in new injectors and tried to start getting them dialed in a bit... they're definitely not perfect but seem ok for the most part now. We also pulled my plugs yesterday and I'm wondering if maybe one got damaged in that process. I was having the problem some before we pulled the plugs, but it seems like its worse after we put them back in. They're 1 step colder but my tuner said they're more discolored than he'd like to see so he wants me to try to find 2 step colder plugs to give them a shot.

Is there something I'm missing here? Can someone walk me through my map to try to educate me a bit in general?

my setup is:
07 STi
FP Green
DW 750cc injectors
walbro pump
aps 70mm cai
aps inlet pipe
aps 525 fmic
tgv delete
perrin headers
txs ewg uppipe
tial 44mm ewg
aps 3" catless turboback
1 step colder plugs

Thanks in advance!
Bryan
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Last edited by TROLL; 06-29-2008 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 04-20-2008, 01:38 PM   #2
Kastley85891
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^ I got same problem with nearly identical set up - the EWG - Dom for FP etc.

I have reduced my WGDC until I get to 3K RPM, I still get teh studder in sixth but assume that its just a trait of the Subaru motor, low rpm,high gear, strain strain lol, mine is also fine above three thou or if I drop a gear.

I cant comment on the first gear issue but for sure thw higher gears I have seen the same problem.

GL - Id be interested to see how it gos.
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Old 04-20-2008, 09:03 PM   #3
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do you still have the problem or were you able to fix it? i cant see what difference changing my wgdc would do since i'm deep in vac still when this happens...
anyone have any ideas?
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:40 AM   #4
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Ever get this problem resolved? I've started doing some data logging and I'm starting to see a little bit of the same.
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Old 06-18-2008, 12:04 PM   #5
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same here... :-(
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:15 PM   #6
Wheeler Bement
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can you pst your map?

FYI, on my 02 WRX, I have found that I had to increase the timing quite a bit below 2000 rpm all the way out to 1.2 load column. I think what is happening is the mixture does not have enough time to burn, so when it exits, it is still burning which ignites the incoming right away. I can drive in 5th gear at 35 mph with no bumping, shaking, etc. I can also do a 5th gear pull from 1200rpm and have it nice and smooth. I'm still working on it though, but the result has been increase the timing.

what helped me figure it out was making a 3D plot of g/min divided by rpm(based on your map table). it bascially gives you the g/rev, then you can divide(or multiply) it by your timing value in the map. it will show you spots that don't quite line up with the overall trend, the problem is you don't know what the trend is, or where the ends shoudl line up, so you have to keep that in mind. I think you will find your low rpm, mid load range is off.

my thinking is that if you keep the rpm consant, and increase the load...then the charge will need less time to burn, so lower timing is needed. if you keep the load constant, and increase the rpm, it needs more time for a complete burn...thisonly makes sense for closed loop where the AFR is constant. I have not done the physics research to see if this increase is linear or not, but I assumed it was and have had good results. Once I get it lined out, I will start to increase timing and see what happens. I also zeroed my CL/OL delay and made everything below 2000 rpm run in closed loop...

one more thing, take your log and graph only those load/rpm points where you have FBKC or FLKC. I make an X/Y scatter plot with rpm in the y axis, load in the x axis, and then scale the axis to match my timing table values. I did that to your logs you posted...and you can see exactly where you need to focus.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeler Bement View Post
can you pst your map?

FYI, on my 02 WRX, I have found that I had to increase the timing quite a bit below 2000 rpm all the way out to 1.2 load column. I think what is happening is the mixture does not have enough time to burn, so when it exits, it is still burning which ignites the incoming right away. I can drive in 5th gear at 35 mph with no bumping, shaking, etc. I can also do a 5th gear pull from 1200rpm and have it nice and smooth. I'm still working on it though, but the result has been increase the timing.
I ran into this same situation I kept getting knock at low RPM. I kept pulling timing and got more knock. I than compared the map to stock and I was running much less timing than stock so I decided to go the other way and add timing. It solved my problems.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:28 AM   #8
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At low load and low rpms you have to take "road noise" into account as well.Those sensors can be pretty sensitive.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
At low load and low rpms you have to take "road noise" into account as well.Those sensors can be pretty sensitive.
I was halfway thinking about disabling FKC at such low revs for just that reason.
False knock is always a pain in the @$$.
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Old 06-29-2008, 03:34 AM   #10
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I've tweaked my map along the way a bit here and there and no longer have this problem, but I still have another problem that has existed for a long time... when I blip the throttle in neutral the car pulls timing like its reacting to knock.
I really dont understand why it would be knocking in neutral at low load... and I just cant figure it out.
It happens consistently around 1.0 load, and at various rpm but usually between 2000 and 3000 rpm. My AFRs are obviously transitioning at this point but they look pretty in line.
I've tried going back to a completely stock timing map with no luck, I've also tried messing with my tip in enrichment from pulling 25% enrichment all the way to adding 50% enrichment, and nothing changes.
Anything else I should be looking at? Again, anyone want to take a look at my map to see if there's something out of wack that I'm missing?
I reallllllly want to figure this out... its the last thing to get my car running 100%.
Thanks again...
Bryan
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:04 AM   #11
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Does it JUST happen in neutral when you blip the throttle, or do you see it during tip-in in normal driving?
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Old 06-29-2008, 11:06 AM   #12
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Is there anything on the car that would cause false knock? Like a noisy aftermarket clutch or flywheel, loud exhaust with EWG, something rattling around like a header hitting the crossmember etc?

If all else fails you can raise the knock correction ranges higher, but then you aren't protected from real knock in the lower ranges.
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:30 PM   #13
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I do not see any abnormal knock when the car is in gear, so far at least. It does get a little in 5th and 6th at lower rpm from time to time but I know thats not uncommon and I expect that can be tuned out.
The only times I see it are when I clutch in and revmatch to downshift (but only sometimes), and I can replicate it pretty consistently if I just have the car in neutral and blip the throttle. It sometimes pulls only 2 or 4 degrees, but sometimes it will pull 6 or 8... It happens most often when the car is sitting at idle at 800 rpm and it usually wont happen if I hold the rpms at 1500+ and then blip the throttle from there, but every now and again it does.
It almost always happens between .9 and 1.1 load... 90% of the knock is at that point, but its at different rpm ranges... usually around 2000-2500 but thats +/- 1000 rpm.

I have looked for anything that might be making engine bay noise and I dont hear anything at all. I've checked above and below the engine on a lift and things seem pretty standard all around. I had thought it must be some external noise since changine the timing, fueling, etc doesnt have an affect on it, but I cant find anything there so I'm looking back at the tune to see if there's something I'm missing.

I can post some logs if that will help... or if you have any ideas on anything else to pay attention to please let me know. I had a tuner check it out and he wasnt sure, and I've been trying to troubleshoot without any luck either.

Thanks for the help guys... I'm on the bitter edge with this car right now and this is the last straw...
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:33 PM   #14
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Bryan, did you try pulling fuel from that knock spot and see if it goes away or if the count gets higher?
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:55 PM   #15
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It really seems like you are getting flase knock from something in the clutch or trans if it only happens when you push the clutch in or are in neutral.

I could look at your map and logs if you want. I'm not a pro tuner, but I know what I'm doing for the most part.

I could show you how to tune around it in RomRaider but it wouldn't solve the root of the problem. Did you try getting a mechanics stethescope and listening to the engine block and trans case while duplicating it to see if you hear anything rattling around?
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:06 PM   #16
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I would do like the others suggested and raise the knock threshold.If not you will be chasing your tail changing timing and fuel.Cars don't really detonate at low loads and rpms.RomRaider should have some good info on this as suggested earlier by others.
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Old 06-30-2008, 10:41 PM   #17
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Are you referring to your "neutral knock" when you blip the throttle and the total timing falls to around 1-3*? Mine does it all the time, when you are sitting with or without the clutch in, in neutral and blip the throttle when it falls the timing falls to almost 0*.

Also I am experiencing your "false" knock at around .9 load between 2400 and 3k. I added a bit of fuel and took out .5* timing and smoothed out the timing in that area, helped alot.

I think the timing falling on its face is normal, as the ecu is trying to keep the engine running, but doing it softly, taking timing out would allow the engine to fall smoother but not fall to far?!? Maybe I'm out of whack on that, but it seems normal, when my friend comes home, I will test his 02 out before I flash stage 2 to it.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:14 AM   #18
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Default

here are a couple logs... (right click save as to get them to display properly)

http://www.bryantroll.com/other/romr...629_024932.csv

http://www.bryantroll.com/other/romr...629_020602.csv

It doesnt look like fuel is going overly learn or rich as far as I can tell... and the timing is smooth. I'd love to see what others think, and if there's any other log you want to see let me know and I'll get it for you. I don't have logs of it but the knock pulls up to the max amount which is 11.8 degrees sometimes, and a -6 or -8 is pretty common.

I've been trying a handful of things just to see... the latest attempt was to take my original basemap and just change injector scaling and latency, maf scaling, and map scaling (3 bar map sensor) and not touch anything else at all... I flashed the map, blipped the throttle, and I got the same exact knock again .
The clutch and flywheel bolts were torqued to spec about 1 year and 5k miles ago... its definitely possible that they have worked themselves out but I haven't seen that in the past. I'm thinking of going to a shop that has a stethoscope to try and listen a little more closely to see if we can pinpoint something. I dont hear anything at all myself, but I'm not an expert so what do I know?

I dont feel like reducing the knock sensors sensitivity or active range is a proper fix to the situation, unless someone can explain to me that it wouldn't have any potentially negative or risky results.

Thanks for the ideas guys, I'm reading them all and really would like to figure this out.

Last edited by TROLL; 07-05-2008 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 07-05-2008, 12:55 PM   #19
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which ECU are you running?
--when you take the 02(and maybe 03s) to 100%throttle, there is a predetermined value that it hits first(and it basically dumps tons of fuel) this could be your problem. I think the next ecu definition release is going to cover this. you can find this issue on romraider under "CL/OL fueling explained"(or something like that). try doing the same throttle blip but don't go to 100%, see what happens.
does your throttle position ever go to zero?
what is your CL fueling target?

Last edited by Wheeler Bement; 07-05-2008 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 07-05-2008, 01:09 PM   #20
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I am running the 07 STi ECU... my CL fuel targets are 14.7, i think throttle position always stays at like 1 or 2% at idle.

I was thinking that the culprit may be in something regarding the transition from CL to OL, but it doesn't happen when i'm driving normally in gear and get on the throttle going from CL to OL.
Like I said, I used a totally stock basemap just with maf and fuel scaling adjusted but nothing else and that still exhibited the same issues, so thats strange.

Not sure if my DW 750cc injectors need some extra tweaking to get them to behave or not... does my AFR look decent when I get on the throttle? Not sure if it should be going richer or if it should just stay in line like it is for the most part.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:15 PM   #21
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All this so makes not want to go to stage 2 any longer
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:22 AM   #22
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His setup is way beyond stage 2. Stage 2 is a cake walk.
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:58 PM   #23
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anyone have any other feedback about the logs i put up a few posts back? i'm hoping there's something i'm missing or a new idea i havent thought of.
i'm considering trying to find a set of stock 07 sti injectors and putting them back in along with stock fuel settings to see if there's something amiss with my current setup. i really dont know what else to try...
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeler Bement View Post
one more thing, take your log and graph only those load/rpm points where you have FBKC or FLKC. I make an X/Y scatter plot with rpm in the y axis, load in the x axis, and then scale the axis to match my timing table values. I did that to your logs you posted...and you can see exactly where you need to focus.
can you clarify what you mean by "scale the axis to match my timing table values?"
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:05 PM   #25
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bump bump
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