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Old 12-27-2009, 04:20 PM   #26
SailRacer
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I just bought a kayak when it was on sale after Thanksgiving.

I wanted a flat water (lake) kayak, I did not want to get that wet or get to cold if a small rain or storm kicked up while I was out. I bought a sit in kayak. With a sit in kayak I can stay dryer and warmer and still hop out to take a swim. My kayak also has a water sealed storage compartment. It also has adjustable foot rests.

A kayak is all about what you want to do with it, just like any boat (this has been posted before).

I can't wait for the spring to go kayaking! I will be able to go out a lot earlier since I have a sit in boat rather than a sit on top boat.

I do not agree that you have to have an expensive kayak to have fun though (as stated in this thread), the kayak that I bought is the cheapest sit in kayak that you can buy and I read about thirty customer reviews about it and just about all of them were positive. As in any sport or hobby you will find people that believe that you have to spend a lot and buy the best to be ubber cool and fast and look hot. I don't believe that crap. You can take a great picture with a cheap camera and have a great time with a cheap kayak.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:23 PM   #27
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I do want to say in advance that while taking advice here, I'm also taking it IRL. Both from locals and shop owners. I don't want this to turn out like the MB thread where some one asks for a good bike for around town and light trail, and every one from CO tells them they need a full suspension downhill bike.

In other words, thanks for the advice, it will be headed with other advice for fit and function.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:31 PM   #28
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I did just find this...

Quote:
SINK (sit-in)

Faster and easier to paddle than most sit-on kayaks
You stay relatively dry
Protected from the elements (sun, cold, rain, etc)
Designed for covering longer distances
Dry storage areas for equipment
Best for day trips and touring
Can be difficult to get in and out (especially on the water)
Smaller cockpits
May require a spray skirt in rough water
Movement is restricted and you cannot easily change positions
In hot weather a sit-in can get very warm under the deck, especially when using a spray skirt
Minimal access to items placed on back deck (back part of kayak) and no access to items in dry storage

SOT (sit-on)

Stability is usually greater than sit-in
Relatively easy to get in and out (including on the water)
Freedom of movement
Large storage areas on the deck, easily accessible
Best for fishing and surfing
Exposed to the elements (sun, cold, water, etc)
Exposed to wave splash and constant drip from the paddle
Slower and more difficult to paddle than sit-in
You will always have a wet bottom from sitting in small amount of water
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:34 PM   #29
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Of course you should take advise from everywhere you can get it, and sort through it and see what is best for you. Again, the best way to do this is to paddle as many boats as you can before you buy.

As for being stuck in a sit-in boat when you flip; that isn't the case in a sea kayak. You aren't in a kayak tight enough to get stuck in one. What really happens, is that gravity pulls you out before you even know what happens. To learn how to roll in a sea kayak, you have to outfit the boat so that you are in fairly tight and so that you don't fall out. I have tried to roll sea kayaks that aren't outfitted correctly, and I was even falling out while rolling one.

If you find a group of kayakers, often times some of them rent college swimming pools to practice rolls and wet exits in a controlled environment. I strongly recommend doing this at least once to get the feel of how easy it really is to get out of a boat if you flip. Also, you can see how hard it is to get back in once you are out. That is something that you should practice as well, especially if you paddle more than swimming distance from shore.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:59 PM   #30
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Yeah, not my best run ever, but I think it's the best set of photos I have of me kayaking. It's always a ton of fun though. It's a bit hard to see, but in the 4th photo I'm about to drop into a hole about 3 feet below me, hence the mystery move in the 5th photo. My footpads had slipped forward and thrown my body positioning off. I was leaning back through the whole set.






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Old 12-27-2009, 04:59 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRacer View Post
I do not agree that you have to have an expensive kayak to have fun though (as stated in this thread), the kayak that I bought is the cheapest sit in kayak that you can buy and I read about thirty customer reviews about it and just about all of them were positive. As in any sport or hobby you will find people that believe that you have to spend a lot and buy the best to be ubber cool and fast and look hot. I don't believe that crap. You can take a great picture with a cheap camera and have a great time with a cheap kayak.
If that is what you got from what I wrote, you completely misunderstood what I was saying.

I think of it like mountain bikes, you can get a $150 Huffy, but they aren't made for real mountain biking and if you try to use one for it, it doesn't work well. They are still great for some people's uses for them, but not for most. The problem is that people want to get into mountain biking but don't want to spend $800+ on a good bike before they know if they like it. The Huffy has bad breaks, doesn't shift well, the chain falls off, is uncomfortable, and such. People might think that mountain biking isn't fun if they have only tried it on a Huffy.

The less expensive boats can be good for some people, but not for people who really want to go out and do real sea kayaking. They are fine for people who are happy with going 2-3mph and not going more than 2 miles at a time. If someone wants to paddle 5mph and go more than 5miles in a day, that 11' long and 27" wide boat is going to be really discouraging. I have sold kayaks in a retail situation and as a sponsored kayaker, and I have seen this exact thing happen many times.

More expensive boats aren't about looking "cool" and being super fast, they are more comfortable, more efficient, lighter, and better built. There is a happy medium for everyone, and that will be the least expensive boats for some people, and the most expensive carbon racing boat for others, but not many. At the least expensive end of the spectrum, an extra $200-$500 can be a HUGE difference in performance and value.

Also, just like the "what BOV should I buy" threads, everyone thinks that theirs is the best, and that often skews the reviews. Everyone who bought a certain kayak thinks it is the best one out there, and recommends it to everyone. Not saying that is the case with yours, but it often is for many things.

Again, like I have said a bunch of times, the only way to see what boat fits your needs, is to try as many as possible before you buy.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteH2O View Post
Of course you should take advise from everywhere you can get it, and sort through it and see what is best for you. Again, the best way to do this is to paddle as many boats as you can before you buy.

As for being stuck in a sit-in boat when you flip; that isn't the case in a sea kayak. You aren't in a kayak tight enough to get stuck in one. What really happens, is that gravity pulls you out before you even know what happens. To learn how to roll in a sea kayak, you have to outfit the boat so that you are in fairly tight and so that you don't fall out. I have tried to roll sea kayaks that aren't outfitted correctly, and I was even falling out while rolling one.

If you find a group of kayakers, often times some of them rent college swimming pools to practice rolls and wet exits in a controlled environment. I strongly recommend doing this at least once to get the feel of how easy it really is to get out of a boat if you flip. Also, you can see how hard it is to get back in once you are out. That is something that you should practice as well, especially if you paddle more than swimming distance from shore.
This is what I was thinking. It's been about 12 years since I did any paddling, but I worked at Eastern Mountain Sports, and we could take our rental boats out for free. I took advantage of that.

I paddled a Swifty 3.1 Perception boat one weekend through a slow, tight river and over a few beaver dams. It was a blast, pretty maneuverable, and very stable. It had a very open cockpit, and I didn't have a skirt (can't find any pics of the boat now), and I didn't get that wet.

I also paddled one of their longer lake boats on Lake Champlain, and it was a blast. Much faster than the Shorty, but harder to turn too - which was great in the lake when the winds kicked up and I wasn't drifting sideways across the bay.


Neither boat ever made me feel like I was going to be trapped in it if I rolled - they weren't white water boats like a Dagger or something, and the cockpits just weren't that tight.
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Old 12-27-2009, 06:57 PM   #33
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If you do end up with a tandem, you had better have the patience of Job. They call them divorce boats for a reason.


*****I will never get into a canoe or kayak with my wife again because someone will drown********
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:36 PM   #34
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Yeah we ruled out a tandem once we realized you basically need two persons to take it out. We will get two, one at a time, instead of getting a tandem. I thought a tandem would be cool if I wanted to take my daughter or a chick with me, instead decided they can paddle themsleves.

After doing some research I like the kayaks by Perception. Particularly the Carolina 12.



This sits on the top of my list, maybe I will find another I like better but this seems to fit all my needs and has the features, qualities, and reviews I desire thus far. Comments on this kayak or Perception kayaks in general appreciated.
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:33 PM   #35
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Like I said in my post I paddled a couple Perception boats and enjoyed them. Back then they were damned near indestructible but I don't know if they still use the same plastic though.
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:38 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eye one View Post
After doing some research I like the kayaks by Perception. Particularly the Carolina 12.

Comments on this kayak or Perception kayaks in general appreciated.
I have had a few Perception kayaks in the past, and have liked them. They are never on the leading edge of design, but that isn't important for what you need. Brand isn't really too important in this class of sea kayaks, there will be fairly little changes that you will find brand to brand in the class of kayaks you will be shopping.

I have never paddled a Carolina 12, but it looks like it would fit your needs. If you can before you buy, also paddle the Carolina 14. I know they advertise it as one that will hold more gear, and while that isn't important to you, a longer and skinnier boat might be nice, and I will bet that the little bit of extra efficiency will be nicer than the tiny bit of extra maneuverability that the 12 has. If it is worth the extra money, now that will be the big question. I do know that the Carolina 14 is a very popular design, and gets very good reviews from all sorts of experienced and beginner paddlers.
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Old 12-27-2009, 09:34 PM   #37
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I worked at a kayak shop for a few years in high school. We stopped selling "recreational" kayaks after about the first year the place was in business. Everybody will get bored with a recreational boat after about the first 3 times you use the thing. If you plan on paddling over a mile I highly suggest getting a day touring kayak.

A 12 to 14 footer is really the minimum I recommend, and if you are going to be in open water having a sealed hatch is pretty much a necessity. If you roll or take on water that bulkhead will keep you floating.

When doing rolling demos with a recreational boat we accidentally sunk the thing to the bottom of a swimming pool. It took on so much water we could hardly pull it out.






Thats my Riot Tourlite 15. I got it for $650 since I worked at the kayak shop. It retailed for about $1600.
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Old 12-27-2009, 09:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eye one View Post
Yeah we ruled out a tandem once we realized you basically need two persons to take it out. We will get two, one at a time, instead of getting a tandem. I thought a tandem would be cool if I wanted to take my daughter or a chick with me, instead decided they can paddle themsleves.

After doing some research I like the kayaks by Perception. Particularly the Carolina 12.



This sits on the top of my list, maybe I will find another I like better but this seems to fit all my needs and has the features, qualities, and reviews I desire thus far. Comments on this kayak or Perception kayaks in general appreciated.

That perception is a great kayak. It is pretty stable and reasonably quick. Another kayak in the price range to look at is the Dagger Catalyst, and if you can find one, the Dagger Backwater.
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:44 PM   #39
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Wilderness Systems I find has by far the most comfortable seats.

As for the "filling up with water" risk of a sit-in, this is why you have to carry a pump. Anything longer than 10' usually has separate compartments so it won't sink. Practice getting in an out though.

I am with WhiteH20.. sit-in for sure. 12-14 foot range will probably make you happy. Used roto-molded is what your budget dictates.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawmacs View Post
Wilderness Systems I find has by far the most comfortable seats.

As for the "filling up with water" risk of a sit-in, this is why you have to carry a pump. Anything longer than 10' usually has separate compartments so it won't sink. Practice getting in an out though.

I am with WhiteH20.. sit-in for sure. 12-14 foot range will probably make you happy. Used roto-molded is what your budget dictates.
I wouldn't rely on a pump. Rolling over and a wet exit in some recreational boats can put them on the bottom. I've seen it happen in the pool a few times during our beginners kayak class.

When we do trips from the shop in the detroit river and into lake erie we don't allow people to come without sealed hatches or flotation bags at the very least.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:12 AM   #41
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A sit in kayak without bulkheads can sink, but they almost always have enough foam to keep them on the top. They can easily sink enough so that a pump won't do anything, though. If a boat doesn't have bulkheads, float bags are a must for anything further off shore than you want to swim with a boat that is fully loaded with water.

Again though, this is why I strongly recommend taking a new boat to a pool session and testing all these things out in a controlled environment before something bad happens out in the middle of the bay.
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Old 12-28-2009, 01:05 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CF-Ninja View Post
I wouldn't rely on a pump. Rolling over and a wet exit in some recreational boats can put them on the bottom. I've seen it happen in the pool a few times during our beginners kayak class.

When we do trips from the shop in the detroit river and into lake erie we don't allow people to come without sealed hatches or flotation bags at the very least.
Note the reference to separate compartments. If you are ocean kayaking and your cockpit fills up, what else are you going to rely on? I agree though if you have a boat without sealed bulkheads, float bags are a pretty darn good idea.

I am just arguing that avoiding a sit-in for casual day paddling for fear of "sinking risk" is a bit silly. I don't see many epic ocean trips in rough conditions done on sit-ons for safety's sake.

For me, I just wouldn't feel comfortable or secure on a sit-a-top. I like keeping my ass ballast low.
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Old 12-28-2009, 01:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteH2O View Post
A sit in kayak without bulkheads can sink, but they almost always have enough foam to keep them on the top. They can easily sink enough so that a pump won't do anything, though. If a boat doesn't have bulkheads, float bags are a must for anything further off shore than you want to swim with a boat that is fully loaded with water.
Ladies and gentlemen... this post just pushed me firmly into the SOT category!

Really though, I can't help but reflect upon the thought of getting in and out, etc. I think my mind is pretty firm on the good side of an SOT. I1 and I talked about it briefly tonight and both think we'll go completely different directions with our purchases and have different options available. That way we'll have the option for what ever we feel like using. I get a short nimble SOT and he'll get a long decked out SINK.

Woot.
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Old 12-28-2009, 01:52 AM   #44
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Really, you need to try at least one of each. There is a good reason 90% of kayakers have sit-in kayaks instead of sit-on-top kayaks. Most kayaks have waterproof bulkheads that make this a moot point, the ones that don't have little inflatable bags that make this a moot point.

I have had many boats that haven't had either and have never had one sink (including whitewater kayaks that have gone down some big whitewater full of water). Even if you don't have anything like bulkheads or airbags, there is almost always enough foam to keep a boat on the top of the water. Plus, I wonder what percentage of people have really flipped and swam out of a sea kayak on accident. I bet it is less than 1%.

I use a sit on top kayak for all of my non-whitewater kayaking only because they don't make sit-in kayaks for what I want (skinny, long, tippy, fast racing boats) and I really wish that I could find a sit-in kayak that would work for what I want, because I don't like being out in the elements, it is too cold 75% of the time, can't bring any gear.

Just to agree with shawmacs, "avoiding a sit-in for casual day paddling for fear of "sinking risk" is a bit silly." I would also add that getting in and out isn't difficult in either once you learn how. It doesn't matter to me what one you choose, just try to at least choose based on what you like, not what you think you would like from reading about them. The only way to do that is to try them before you buy.

Last edited by WhiteH2O; 12-28-2009 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:04 AM   #45
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In the pictures I posted above the use might be different, but the basics of kayaking are the same. A sit in kayak with a skirt is generally going to give you higher performance and control than a SOT kayak. I have swum in that playboat several times and it has never sunk, even when I forget to inflate my float bags.

I'm sure that there is somewhere near you that would be willing to do a demo of different boats for you. After about 9 years in kayaks I am infinitely more comfortable with the control that a sit in boat provides. Don't rule them out for fear of sinking.
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:08 AM   #46
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Seriously, I appreciate your input and intend to seek more. I see you live in WA and do a lot of white water. As adamant as you are, from there, about SINK's, I've talked to shop owners and local paddlers who are just as into SOT's.

I imagine doing this with and SOT:


And this with a SINK.


And have no intention of doing this:


And this is where I intend on doing what I do, taken from my bedroom:




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Old 12-28-2009, 02:35 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteH2O View Post
I use a sit on top kayak for all of my non-whitewater kayaking only because they don't make sit-in kayaks for what I want (skinny, long, tippy, fast racing boats) and I really wish that I could find a sit-in kayak that would work for what I want, because I don't like being out in the elements, it is too cold 75% of the time, can't bring any gear.
.
Have you tried the Valley Rapier 20? I had the privilege of using one while I worked at the shop. It felt like I had a motor compared to my touring boat. It isn't quiet in the class of the SOT racing kayaks, but damn does it haul ass.
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:36 AM   #48
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Looks like fun could be had in either.

Keep in mind that while some are helpful, some salesmen might be trying to unload boats (such as the not as yet popular SOT). Carefully consider what they say and do a lot of your own research. Case in point, a salesman at a reputable local shop had my friend, who is a beginner looking to buy her first boat convinced that she NEEDED a glass boat and that rotomolds were just no good and unsafe because the plastic deteriorates over time. He basically drew the picture that if she bought plastic she'd have to replace it within a couple years or she would be on the bottom and that she should never buy a used plastic boat for that reason.

I would have hit him with the nearest paddle.

Test paddle. You will be amazed at how differently boats feel. As a plug for my boat:
http://www.wildernesssystems.com/pro...mi_140_touring
Really stable, heaps of volume and good for the bigger bloke. Seat is heaven for the ass with it's 3-way adjust ability (it even has a mid-back support recliner setting for that lazy day). Not the fastest boat, but relatively good maneverability (I have even paddled light class 3 in it).

Just for fun:
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:00 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawmacs View Post
Looks like fun could be had in either.

]

My thoughts exactly. Really... both. If I have



And my brother/room mate has:



We should be pretty well to go have some fun. These are just examples, and not final decisions.
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Old 12-28-2009, 07:42 AM   #50
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Shameless plug for my buddy. It's not the best site but...

www.FLKayaking.com
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