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Old 04-28-2021, 11:29 AM   #1
WhiteZombie
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Default Oil Pressure Gauges: Non digital "needle" style react fast enough?

How do ya'll feel about electrical oil pressure gauges with standard swinging needles having a quick enough reaction time to shut things down quick enough to hopefully avoid mega catastrophic failure, at least while still on the track surface?

I think I'd feel most comfortable having something with a low-pressure warning light, that should come on near instantly and be very obvious if a low oil pressure situation is detected.

Any preferred gauges you guys like that come in around $100 or less?

Cheers!
-Brian
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:41 AM   #2
subydude
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I can tell you you won't see it on track and if you're setting the warning light high enough to matter, it'll be on all the time at idle.

The damage is mostly done in corners where oil pressure drops from starvation while at higher RPM on throttle. So let's say you hit the carousel at Nelson Ledges and stay in it like you're supposed to at 6.5k ish in 4th. You'll, over time, see your oil pressure drop to 40-30 psi. Now when you come off track it'll idle normal and still make good pressure in a straight line. And unless you're looking at your gauges while in a corner, on throttle, (you really won't be) you won't see the drops.

By the time the oil pressure is hitting what would actually trigger a warning light the damage is by far already done. Yes, you can check pressures on the straights, but if you see a low pressure situation there, it's rebuild time already, not "I can save this crank" unfortunately.

That being said, I like autometer gauges and run them in my autox car. I have a Haltech Elite in the car and am planning on feeding it the oil pressure signal going to the gauge so I can build some engine protect scenarios in that will do what you're talking about. That's really about the only way to catch something quick enough because no human is going to be staring at a gauge while on track.

Another alternative (and one I've done before) is setting up a go pro to watch the gauge while on track and then reviewing it after to see how things are going.

An accusump might help if you're getting consistent dips on track also.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:48 PM   #3
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Hey thanks for the reply!

So, to be transparent, this is really a question regarding my track rat '95 Caprice that already has a OE gauge in the cluster, but I'm not sold on it's accuracy or response time.
Obviously it's a big honking V8 that I only ever spin to maybe 5.5k rpm in a corner, and typically short shift a bit if I know I'm gonna be sitting in a high rpm range around a long sweeper. The oil pressure is already much lower than a Subaru motor, and the motor is arguably nowhere near as sensitive to oiling issues, as the clearances are a bit looser too.

That said, I was running Atlanta Motorsports Park this past weekend, and T13-T15 is just one looooong opening radius sweeper, which I was taking flat through 3rd, 4th and early into 5th to keep the revs down. It was enough to fill my catch can in a session between that and another shorter sweeper earlier in the lap, and also enough to actually leak a bit of oil out of the TOP of the passenger side valvecover through maybe a slightly tired rubber grommet.

I kept a keen eye on the oil pressure gauge every time around that corner if there wasn't any traffic next to me, and it was rock solid the whole time, but still got me thinking an early warning light would be a bit more peace of mind, especially at other tracks where I might not be able to stare a gauge down through a concerning corner.

I'm ok with a warning light on at idle that maybe I can stick a cover over for street driving. Or cover the gauge completely if not, as I do have the OE gauge on the cluster that does work.
I already have exclusively Autometer gauges in both my track car and my daily/autoX blobeye wagon and have had good luck with them, so I suppose I can stick with them.

Accusump is a possibility down the road IF I ever start to notice any pressure fluctuations, but in the last 10 years on 25 tracks, I have not. I'm also running a 255 width, 200tw tire on a 3700lb monster sedan, so I'm not generating mind bending G forces either.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:59 PM   #4
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One possible solution is to wiring the warning light up to a switch so you can turn on the power to the light before going out and set it to something like 35-40 psi. That way it's not on at idle, street driving, or otherwise, but as you're in staging you can flip the switch and have it sitting there.

I would also suggest figuring a way to drain the catch cans back to the block. Once you have that it's amazing how much less oil you go through at track days.

Also, the OE warning light on the dash usually comes on at like 2-5 psi, so well past the "oh ****" moment you're looking for. I would suggest the go pro method to get a base line of lowest oil pressure, then get a hobbs switch set to 3-5 psi lower than your lowest on track pressure and wire it to a bright LED mounted on top of the dash in eye line, then make the power wire go through a toggle switch as stated so you can turn the warning light on and off.
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Old 04-28-2021, 01:51 PM   #5
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FWIW, as I never experienced the catch can filling up like this, or really used an discernable amount of oil over a full day of tracking, I've only ever packed 1 spare quart of oil. I realized after the 2nd session I'd run out of oil pretty quick if I didn't dump that catch can right back into the oil fill - so I did. I'm going to see how the catch cans go at other tracks before I mess with other drain back solutions, etc.

To clarify, this particular car model actually comes with a full sweep oil pressure gauge, but it is not quantified or labeled in any meaningful way - in addition to having the red mega low oil pressure death light. Those with aftermarket gauges in addition to the factory gauge report that it is stable and accurate "enough" with the 1/4 to 3/4 range sweep representing about 30-60psi, and mine has always been more or less right smack in the middle on track, about 50 psi or so to my understanding.
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Old 04-28-2021, 02:25 PM   #6
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As you get quicker, it'll push more oil, so I'd look into the drain back before too long. The more "set and forget" you can go the better your track days will be.

50 psi is good. The old adage of 10psi per 1k rpm is just a guideline IMO. I've tracked cars that lived at 35 psi and 7k rpm, and others that did 85 psi at 6,500 rpm. As long as it's happy and the oil comes out clean via a blackstone report then you're pretty much golden. Those factory gauges do have a bit of buffer built in though so it might sit at 50 psi, but I'm betting there's dips and spikes, so building that hobbs switch/warning light/toggle switch setup and setting it at 40 psi would tell you for sure if you're getting dips or not.
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Old 05-10-2021, 11:11 PM   #7
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Based on some datalogging that I have seen from some more serious autoX and track cars I think we are quickly getting to the point of tires being so sticky and suspension being so good that even cars as low as STI's and BRZ's will soon need to go dry sump to be able to be reliable on a track. I'm 99% sure my motor died due to oil starve in high G corners, and a friend with a Miata (autoX and track) and another with a Vette (Wheel to Wheel road racing) have shown me logs where in high G corners they briefly saw 0 psi. It's only the miracle of modern engine oils that kept their engines alive.
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Old 05-11-2021, 09:45 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by speedyHAM View Post
Based on some datalogging that I have seen from some more serious autoX and track cars I think we are quickly getting to the point of tires being so sticky and suspension being so good that even cars as low as STI's and BRZ's will soon need to go dry sump to be able to be reliable on a track. I'm 99% sure my motor died due to oil starve in high G corners, and a friend with a Miata (autoX and track) and another with a Vette (Wheel to Wheel road racing) have shown me logs where in high G corners they briefly saw 0 psi. It's only the miracle of modern engine oils that kept their engines alive.
I don't think you're wrong.

I'm afraid for my motor once the slicks go on, but it's had a long, exciting life.

Gonna throw an extra quart or oil in the pan, get a good gauge and hope for the best until I can get a more serious oil pan installed!
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Old 05-11-2021, 11:11 AM   #9
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AOS goes a long way in controlling oil level, but physics are still there, and Sean is right that tire/suspension/aero tech keeps making us faster. A dry sump is the final solution for sure.
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Old 05-11-2021, 12:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteZombie View Post
How do ya'll feel about electrical oil pressure gauges with standard swinging needles having a quick enough reaction time to shut things down quick enough to hopefully avoid mega catastrophic failure, at least while still on the track surface?

I think I'd feel most comfortable having something with a low-pressure warning light, that should come on near instantly and be very obvious if a low oil pressure situation is detected.

Any preferred gauges you guys like that come in around $100 or less?

Cheers!
-Brian
For $100 gauges, you need to set your expectations low. Even with a $400 gauge, you're not going to 'see' a momentary drop in pressure, even if you never took your eyes off the gauge. Datalogging is what you want for fine accurate feedback. There are light and buzzer options that you can go cheap on, but you'll be swapping your own time to make it work. With either, there's also the chance you may not see it in time.

You 95 Caprice has likely got a multi position gauge. It's not going to swing like an aftermarket performance gauge.

Before we get far down this rabbit hole, what is the level of competition we're talking about here? Is this just a fun track rat you want to make sure doesn't explode, or are we talking track prepped and caged racecar?
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Old 05-11-2021, 03:09 PM   #11
WhiteZombie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
For $100 gauges, you need to set your expectations low. Even with a $400 gauge, you're not going to 'see' a momentary drop in pressure, even if you never took your eyes off the gauge. Datalogging is what you want for fine accurate feedback. There are light and buzzer options that you can go cheap on, but you'll be swapping your own time to make it work. With either, there's also the chance you may not see it in time.

You 95 Caprice has likely got a multi position gauge. It's not going to swing like an aftermarket performance gauge.

Before we get far down this rabbit hole, what is the level of competition we're talking about here? Is this just a fun track rat you want to make sure doesn't explode, or are we talking track prepped and caged racecar?
Understandable, but I figure something is better than almost nothing. 3 or 4 seconds around a long sweeper that I have a chance to notice a light on a gauge in a low pressure situation could be the difference between new bearings<new crank<new hole in the block - at least I would think?

A buddy that builds track rats and competition cars alike suprisingly suggested a SpeedHut oil pressure gauge to me, since apparently they have a programmable warning light?

Not really looking to do anything "Competitive" other than chase more modern hardware and chip away towards benchmark quick laps at cool tracks. It's a rat for sure, and definitely attempting to avoid explodies. Once I get a built $$$$ motor in there, my desire to keep it healthy will grow exponentially. Reliability is my #1 goal, as the car still gets driven to every event, and ideally back home, under it's own power.



Last edited by WhiteZombie; 05-12-2021 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 04:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
For $100 gauges, you need to set your expectations low. Even with a $400 gauge, you're not going to 'see' a momentary drop in pressure, even if you never took your eyes off the gauge. Datalogging is what you want for fine accurate feedback.
This! You need high speed logging if you really want to monitor oil starvation windows and not just long starvations.
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Old 05-14-2021, 10:00 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
This! You need high speed logging if you really want to monitor oil starvation windows and not just long starvations.
Dang, what do setups like that cost these days?
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Old 05-14-2021, 06:35 PM   #14
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Expensive gauges and all that stuff add up to a standalone ECU real quick... one that can monitor oil pressure and have automatic safety measures programmed.
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Old 05-20-2021, 07:04 AM   #15
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Pm’ed you
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