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Old 08-25-2016, 06:36 AM   #1
RyanE
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Default '05 Legacy GT getting stuck in 5th - loose synchro cone stopper / mainshaft nut?

Hello learned Subaru enthusiasts,

About 20-30k ago I started encountering a problem where my Legacy would get stuck in 5th gear if I didn't shift out of 5th before coasting to a stop. It would get very stuck, as in shutting off the car (in traffic sometimes ) would only allow me to get the car out of 5th intermittently. I often had to try to get the car rolling in 5th (holy clutch slip Batman) to get enough forward momentum to allow the car to shift out of 5th. Not good.

The car has 199,834ish miles on it now, and it continues to shift fine in and out of 5th and the other gears as long as I downshift before slowing down a bunch or coming to a stop. As the car's happy 200,000 mile anniversary is approaching, I decided I'd try to figure out what was going on.

I found this video a while back showing the same / similar issue on an '02 WRX - this guy's fix was to bend the "ears" on the synchro cone stopper so that they couldn't get stuck behind / in the 5th gear shift forks:

https://youtu.be/QhwVtyybpAI?list=PL...ueygQhfz8UJLxX

Great I thought, I can pull the center diff off the trans in the car and bend the "ears". It's time to change the trans fluid anyway (I do it ~30,000 miles). I didn't have too much trouble pulling off the center diff housing, but found that the "stack" of syncros, gears, and cone stopper seemed very loose. I've read that the nut on the end of the mainshaft can loosen up over time, but the nut is still securely staked in place. I have also read that the tolerances in the "stack" can loosen up over time, requiring the nut to be tightened.

I took some video of the issue, and I'd appreciate if you folks took a couple minutes to look at it and let me know what you think the issue may be:

https://youtu.be/ylkNeXz0a4I

Also, mostly unrelated, I noticed that the shift selector "knuckle" is loose on the shift selector rod going into the transmission. It's like the rod's OD has worn down over time or the "knuckle's" ID has opened up. I think if I replaced the roll pins holding them together with a nut and bolt I could reduce some of the slop this looseness causes, as it is magnified at the shifter, but I'm hoping someone else has experience with this.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. 200,000 miles is barely broken in for a Subaru, right? Heck, the turbo has no shaft play...
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:14 PM   #2
RyanE
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Bump? It looks like a lot of people have read this, but no suggestions...

Worst case I'll unstake the nut and see if it can be tightened down at the 85 ft/lbs FSM spec.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:16 PM   #3
JarHarms
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Default '05 Legacy GT getting stuck in 5th - loose synchro cone stopper / mainshaft nut?

Honestly that hub assembly movement looks normal. That ring (with those fingers) is loose by design. The portion inside is held tight with the nut and it appears that is not moving in your video. It couldn't hurt to check if the nut is at TQ spec. You will need a 35mm socket that is thin enough to clear the tabs that hold in that ring. I think the PITA is how you will hold the mainshaft steady while checking TQ. I've not tried in-car so maybe an engaged clutch is enough.

With that mileage I would be inspecting the rear mainshaft ball bearing. Pretty sure your 05 LGT was built with the ball bearing which are known to wear out. You'll have to hold the bearing external ring tight to the case then push-pull the mainshaft to check for excessive movement. If the mainshaft moved too far rearwards then it would move that rear hub assembly rearwards relative the 5th shift fork.....then maybe it gets bound up

Last edited by JarHarms; 08-26-2016 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 08-27-2016, 07:26 AM   #4
RyanE
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Thanks man, I appreciate the suggestions!

The mainshaft nut was tight, and there wasn't appreciable bearing play. After sleeping on this issue, I realized the next day that the fingers on the cone stopper were indeed fouling the 5th/reverse shift fork due to being bent.

It appears that the shift "knuckle" bolts had seized up, so it was not flexing appropriately, transferring excessive force into the trans case. Yay for road salt.

I bent the stopper fingers back into place and cleaned and re-greased the shift "knuckle". It was loose on the gear selector shaft, so I "adjusted" its slip fit with a hammer and anvil. Much better now.

Also, reinstalling the whole tailshaft / diff assembly with the rest of the trans in the car is very difficult. I ended up emptying out the extension housing, installing it and the gear selector shaft, and then installing the center diff and gears, and then the end cover. Despite the extra fasteners, it went quickly and was much less frustrating than trying to get everything in the extension to line up and mesh with the layshaft. You can also inspect the bearings in the extension and the center diff's snap ring at the same time.
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Old 08-27-2016, 07:46 AM   #5
JarHarms
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Default '05 Legacy GT getting stuck in 5th - loose synchro cone stopper / mainshaft nut?

Cool. Update us how it operates now when driving.

Last edited by JarHarms; 08-28-2016 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 09-01-2020, 01:47 PM   #6
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Bumping a thread from the dead!

I ended up having the getting stuck in 5th gear problem return, and as I am getting ready to sell the car, I decided I needed to fix this for good.

It appears that the synchro bits in the "Sleeve And Hub NO.2" (part number 32610AA100) are sloppy, and combined with the built in slop of the synchro cone stopper, the whole assembly can move fore and aft too much.

I've a new Sleeve and Hub NO.2 assembly on order, but yikes they want real money for that part. Hopefully this will fix the issue for good.
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:19 PM   #7
Elbert Bass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
Bumping a thread from the dead!

I ended up having the getting stuck in 5th gear problem return, and as I am getting ready to sell the car, I decided I needed to fix this for good.

It appears that the synchro bits in the "Sleeve And Hub NO.2" (part number 32610AA100) are sloppy, and combined with the built in slop of the synchro cone stopper, the whole assembly can move fore and aft too much.

I've a new Sleeve and Hub NO.2 assembly on order, but yikes they want real money for that part. Hopefully this will fix the issue for good.
The brass synchro (blocking ring) will have play between the gear and the shift hub sleeve. To inspect you need to evenly hold the ring against the gear and measure the clearance. There is a specification in the manual for that clearance.
I would be inspecting the plastic inserts on the shift fork, and wear on the shift sleeve/hub.
If you have not replace the shifter joint (you called it a knuckle I believe) I would do that first. Odds are your shifter is flopping all over the place by now and if it is binding that would most likely be the cause/contribute to your problem.
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Old 09-02-2020, 02:10 PM   #8
RyanE
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Thanks for your reply!

I suspect I wasn't super clear with my verbiage, so I took some pictures. The shift fork plastics are in superb condition, especially for almost 240,000 miles, and I have replaced the shifter joint twice if I recall - I'm the original owner of the car, but it has been 15 years since I bought it, and my brain isn't getting any younger

Here's the 5th / reverse assembly on the bench in the "at rest" position:



You can see the slop not only in the actual "synchro cone stopper" (the thing with the fingers) but also in what Subaru calls the "Reverse synchro cone", which the stopper is secured to with a snap ring. Please note that these parts are not retained by the main shaft lock nut, and in any case, the nut was not loose, and was even properly staked.

This is a slightly exaggerated image, but I assure you this is the failure mode with the parts installed in the car:



You can see how the "synchro cone stopper" finger can slip behind the 5th / reverse shift fork when the fork moves forward into 5th gear, which makes it difficult to get back out of 5th gear.

I originally ordered a "Sleeve And Hub NO.2" (part number 32610AA100) and the baulk ring, which is not included, but there are apparently only six of them available in the US, and it was going to take a while to ship it here.

I did some comparisons of the 5MT parts fiche from my '05 to the parts fiche for the 5MT units from the '08 and later Legacy GT (and other turbo 5MT transmissions), and found that Subaru had replaced the "Sleeve And Hub NO.2" assembly with a new setup that omits the external "synchro cone stopper" assembly. I've ordered the new part, still called the "Sleeve And Hub NO 2" (part number 32239AA120), plus two "Lever BAULK" (part number 32669AA000), which are also required, as well as a new "Ring BAULK" (part number 32614AA131 32614AA151) as it seemed prudent to replace that part while I was in there as it is a different part and needs to be replaced.

Here's a comparison of the parts fiches:



Hopefully the new parts will not only fix the existing problem, but prevent it from reoccurring when the car hits 400,000 miles

Last edited by RyanE; 09-08-2020 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Corrected part number
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:14 PM   #9
Elbert Bass
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That wide tab on the cone stopper slides in a channel in the case so it does not interfere with the fork if the transmission is properly assembled.

Unfortunately those links are all the same image.
Sure you don't have a bent shift rail?
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:15 AM   #10
RyanE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass View Post
That wide tab on the cone stopper slides in a channel in the case so it does not interfere with the fork if the transmission is properly assembled.

Unfortunately those links are all the same image.
Sure you don't have a bent shift rail?
Nice catch, I've updated the image links.

The wide tab does indeed slide into place, but there's enough slop in it that it seems to find its way behind the 5th / Reverse shift fork. The shift rail for the 5th / Reverse fork seems fine - it moves back and forth without any binding.

Another gentleman on the YouTubes had a similar issue, and posted a video of it here:
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:46 AM   #11
Elbert Bass
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Thanks for updating the pix. Interesting idea from the video - I can only see that being a problem if the stopper got bent by someone during a previous repair, not lining up the tab and shoving the housing on. If it had worn you would expect to find sparkle in the gear oil and noisy and/or damaged bearings.
When you get your new parts compare the two stoppers, I bet the old one will be bent.
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Old 09-04-2020, 12:16 PM   #12
RyanE
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So I know for a fact I was the first one to open up my transmission - I've owned it since new in '05, and it was a real pain in the a$$ to get the case apart hahah!

The center diff housing doesn't go on right without the tab lined up, but I feel there is so much slop in the synchro cone and in the stopper mounted to the cone that it can "fall" out of position enough to foul the 5th / Reverse shift fork. It's a surprising amount of play in the whole assembly, not great.

The current assembly is indeed bent - cause I bent it to prevent it from getting stuck behind the fork That only worked for about 20,000 miles, however.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I ended up ordering the later model assembly, which does not have an external stopper bit.

Here's the current unit:



Here's the updated unit, which I ordered:



The stopper tab can't get stuck if there's no stopper tab (taps head)! Hopefully the new unit will be here by Tuesday....
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Old 09-06-2020, 01:09 PM   #13
Elbert Bass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
So I know for a fact I was the first one to open up my transmission - I've owned it since new in '05, and it was a real pain in the a$$ to get the case apart hahah!

The center diff housing doesn't go on right without the tab lined up, but I feel there is so much slop in the synchro cone and in the stopper mounted to the cone that it can "fall" out of position enough to foul the 5th / Reverse shift fork. It's a surprising amount of play in the whole assembly, not great.

The current assembly is indeed bent - cause I bent it to prevent it from getting stuck behind the fork That only worked for about 20,000 miles, however.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I ended up ordering the later model assembly, which does not have an external stopper bit.

Here's the current unit:



Here's the updated unit, which I ordered:



The stopper tab can't get stuck if there's no stopper tab (taps head)! Hopefully the new unit will be here by Tuesday....
Looks like you ordered 32239AA120. Good luck with that - I don't see that as a supersession from 32610AA100
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Old 09-08-2020, 08:41 AM   #14
RyanE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass View Post
Looks like you ordered 32239AA120. Good luck with that - I don't see that as a supersession from 32610AA100
Yeah, it's not a "true" supersession for the '05 and early - mid '06 and older transmissions, but some digging into a spare trans a buddy is overhauling, and a lot of part number comparisons show there are no other differences in that area of the 5MT. I guess I will indeed find out, heh.

It appears that the Subaru parts warehouse for my area of the US is shut down as of late last week, however. The local dealer parts folks, who have been very good to work with, tell me they received no reason why the warehouse shut down and when it would reopen, but assume it's COVID-19 related. I'm lucky to have another car so the LGT can sit up in the air for a while...
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Old 09-08-2020, 12:08 PM   #15
Elbert Bass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
Yeah, it's not a "true" supersession for the '05 and early - mid '06 and older transmissions, but some digging into a spare trans a buddy is overhauling, and a lot of part number comparisons show there are no other differences in that area of the 5MT. I guess I will indeed find out, heh.

It appears that the Subaru parts warehouse for my area of the US is shut down as of late last week, however. The local dealer parts folks, who have been very good to work with, tell me they received no reason why the warehouse shut down and when it would reopen, but assume it's COVID-19 related. I'm lucky to have another car so the LGT can sit up in the air for a while...
Shouldn't matter. If your nearest PDC is closed/out of stock the order should automatically be referred to the next one with stock. May add a day or two, but shouldn't cause you more than that unless it's on national back-order. That is SOP for Subaru.
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Old 09-08-2020, 04:38 PM   #16
RyanE
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Yeah, they ended up getting most all the parts in today.

I should note for anyone else attempting to install the later parts that you'll also need a new "5th baulk ring". The correct part number for the "5th (gear) baulk ring", also called "Ring BAULK" is 32614AA151. This is a significantly different part than what clicking on the part in the parts.subaru.com catalogue will give you. I've updated my earlier post with the correct part number.

If you click on the part in the parts fiche for an '07 and newer 5MT transmission, you get 32614AA131, which is NOT the correct 5th gear baulk ring. It is the correct baulk ring for 3rd and 4th, however.
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Old 10-15-2020, 12:00 PM   #17
RyanE
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Hey folks - as an update, installing the newer parts went flawlessly. I can't believe how much better the transmission shifts into and out of all the gears, and no more getting stuck in 5th!

Here's some annotated pictures for your perusal: https://imgur.com/a/c6srXTb . Please note that the original 2005 5th/reverse assembly and the "new" 5th/reverse assembly are facing the same relative direction for your reference.

I apparently didn't get any pictures of the new part installed in the transmission, probably because I was under the car and covered in gear oil, but it installed just like the service manual says. That is, slide the shift fork onto the hub, line everything up and slide it on. Use a new nut, torque to spec, and stake. You should also pre-lube the assembly with some gear oil, but make sure you keep your mating surfaces clean.

If you want a better understanding of how this very different looking mechanism works, please consult this PDF: http://www.kyowagokin.co.jp/product/...o1_Jan2003.pdf

It's a dense article, but it will help you understand the simplicity and elegance of the new style system. It works better than the original mechanism with fewer parts thanks to science and physics and...stuff.

Sadly, I've moved on from my Legacy GT, but the car went to a gentleman who was very happy to find the car. I'm glad it is in the hands of an enthusiast.
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