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Old 04-13-2021, 01:28 PM   #26
FaastLegacy
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Can't afford two cars but you can afford one $60k+ car?

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Old 04-13-2021, 01:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I kinda feel like you're missing the point.
I'm definitely not missing the point, I'm just more of a black and white kinda guy. if I have to compromise too much on something, I just give up and let the other side win outright. In this case, if I absolutely HAVE to have an SUV and I cannot swing any other vehicle, I'm not gonna even TRY to make it fun. I'm going to accept my boring assed pathetic life as reality and relegate myself to what I am and what my life dictates quietly. Don't struggle against what you can't fight, y0.


Quote:
Driving an SUV doesn't have to be boring
Yes it does.

Quote:
and there are offerings that make them rather exciting to drive.
No there aren't. At least not compared to any real performance cars. In addition, they're all grotesquely priced boutique items.
The benefit of performance sedans is that they were CHEAPER than the dedicated performance cars they competed with. The fact that they were also more practical was a secondary benefit. Can't say that about any performance SUV.

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I don't know why this is unacceptable or stupid for people to want to have.
Because I think people should stop playing "keeping up with the joneses". If you want a glock, but all you can afford is a highpoint, you just... don't bother getting a handgun and accept your situation sucks.

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It's a rather elitist
I'm aware. I hate people stepping out of their lanes.

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I prefer a larger daily that I can throw stuff in the back but also don't want my daily to be stale and boring.
Why, though? I don't expect long 6 hour road trips on the interstate to be engaging or fun, and I don't look for ways to change that, because it's just so far beyond reality. Same thing if I were forced to daily an SUV.

Let's try it like this: If I don't have any chips, I don't have a desire for chips. However, if I only have, say, 5 chips, as soon as I eat one, I want a whole bag. But, because I only have 5, I'm now irate. I was given a taste of chips, but don't have enough to sate my appetite. That's WAY worse than never eating a chip in the first place.

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Those fools are just WOT pull fan boi's but there is nothing wrong with that. At least not to me.
Wrong in a sense that I think there should be laws against it? Nah. Wrong in that I'll judge them pathetically and belittle them in my head (or on the anonymous internet)? Absolutely

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Can't afford two cars but you can afford one $60k+ car?
Also this
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Old 04-13-2021, 01:48 PM   #28
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I prefer a fast SUV to a fast luxobarge sedan.
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Old 04-13-2021, 01:55 PM   #29
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I sure hope all the people who don't "get" sporty SUVs also don't "get" the WRX and STI since they're both similarly compromised (though in different ways) to a real sports car.
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:18 PM   #30
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I sure hope all the people who don't "get" sporty SUVs also don't "get" the WRX and STI since they're both similarly compromised (though in different ways) to a real sports car.
Except not at all, and I already touched on this a bit. They perform better or on-par with any full-blooded performance car at their given price point. Same cannot be said for these performance SUVs.

If these things were better performance value propositions than actual performance offerings, that would be another discussion altogether. However, that is not the case.

The WRXs and evos of old were appealing because they could keep up with more expensive dedicated cars (looking at you, e46 m3, s2000, etc). What they lacked in purity, they made up for in $/performance metrics.
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:33 PM   #31
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The driving dynamics of every generation wrx of sti has been total **** compared to a proper sports car. The camber curve is terrible. The weight distribution is terrible. The engine is 100% in front of the axle line. Itís a ridiculous platform and itís much more compromised than a car with a properly designed platform but a three inch higher COG.

This is an incredibly stupid hill you chose to die on but thatís your choice.
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:33 PM   #32
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We're not even talking about "real" sports cars. We're talking about performance cars derived from econoboxes. The compromise for getting a sporty SUV is that it'll handle like an SUV, but cost significantly more than it's non-sport variant. At that price just buy a nicer SUV that you can live with, OR, buy a base model SUV and get a relatively fun and affordable used sports car (like a Miata or one of the Twins).
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
We're not even talking about "real" sports cars. We're talking about performance cars derived from econoboxes. The compromise for getting a sporty SUV is that it'll handle like an SUV, but cost significantly more than it's non-sport variant. At that price just buy a nicer SUV that you can live with, OR, buy a base model SUV and get a relatively fun and affordable used sports car (like a Miata or one of the Twins).
My SUV doesn't handle like an SUV and it's got something most sports cars don't have but should in the S58 engine.
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:43 PM   #34
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This is an incredibly stupid hill you chose to die on but that's your choice.
Again, it's about bargain performance metrics with tarted up econo-boxes. Know what feels better than a properly sorted car rounding a corner at 30? A pig steering **** box rounding that same corner at 60 that costs half as much.

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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
We're not even talking about "real" sports cars. We're talking about performance cars derived from econoboxes. The compromise for getting a sporty SUV is that it'll handle like an SUV, but cost significantly more than it's non-sport variant. At that price just buy a nicer SUV that you can live with, OR, buy a base model SUV and get a relatively fun and affordable used sports car (like a Miata or one of the Twins).
exactly.

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My SUV doesn't handle like an SUV
Well it certainly doesn't handle like an s2000 And I bet it doesn't handle like my evo, either. The cayenne and srt8 sure didn't feel that stiff and low.

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and it's got something most sports cars don't have but should in the S58 engine.
Enjoy that fake engine noise

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Old 04-13-2021, 02:46 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
The driving dynamics of every generation wrx of sti has been total **** compared to a proper sports car. The camber curve is terrible. The weight distribution is terrible. The engine is 100% in front of the axle line. Itís a ridiculous platform and itís much more compromised than a car with a properly designed platform but a three inch higher COG.

This is an incredibly stupid hill you chose to die on but thatís your choice.
I will die on the Subaru wrx hill over the big SUV hill. If I did not feel I wanted a basic all wheel drive sedan with a manual I would rethink that calculation as you are very right that relative to other sport sedans a flat 4 has too much weight on the nose of the car. Still far more fun to drive than any SUV i have ever been in and makes the best compromise for my taste today. If I did not have to compromise then I would go 1989 M3. If i had to be realistic and compromise I might go Alfa Romeo Guilia or akin to that. I could have recently had some great deals on an Alfa but it does not have a manual option. For me it was time for a manual.
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
We're not even talking about "real" sports cars. We're talking about performance cars derived from econoboxes. The compromise for getting a sporty SUV is that it'll handle like an SUV, but cost significantly more than it's non-sport variant. At that price just buy a nicer SUV that you can live with, OR, buy a base model SUV and get a relatively fun and affordable used sports car (like a Miata or one of the Twins).
Many of the most beloved performance cars ever made were developed from econoboxes, Mini Cooper, Mustang GT -350R, British version of Ford Escort, The rally derived Escorts sold in Europe, Lancaia Delta Inegrale, BMW M3, Mitsubishi Evo, Golf GTI, and many more than I can name. The pure sports performance sedan or car is the exception as they are too expensive for manufacturers and ordinary people to sell without a mass production counterpart. From the hot hatch to the muscle car they all have cheap mass production versions for the last 60 years.
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Old 04-13-2021, 06:44 PM   #37
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A conversation about good handling vehicles, and all the vehicles mentioned weigh 3000lbs or more.

Gimme a break guys.

Go drive something actually known for handling like a 7, Europa, Spitfire, X19 or Elan. Any one of those or similarly weighted, low slung cars from the 60's and 70's will eat a Miata's lunch for handling.

I'd rather own a $2,000 ****box little British car, and a Honda Odyssey than any of the Multi purpose vehicles being tossed around in this thread.
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Old 04-13-2021, 07:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
A conversation about good handling vehicles, and all the vehicles mentioned weigh 3000lbs or more.

Gimme a break guys.

Go drive something actually known for handling like a 7, Europa, Spitfire, X19 or Elan. Any one of those or similarly weighted, low slung cars from the 60's and 70's will eat a Miata's lunch for handling.

I'd rather own a $2,000 ****box little British car, and a Honda Odyssey than any of the Multi purpose vehicles being tossed around in this thread.
Great answer. I don't have any experience with the cars you mentioned but I do believe lighter is better if you care about handling and drive quality. Cars today are too heavy. My WRX is in the size and weight class almost of a 1980s BMW 7 series. I know my overall car size is bigger than a mid 80s 5 series. The 7 might have still been longer and heavier. Having one car though is still better for me and my situation. My parents own a 67 MGB though that I would not mind acquiring. Problem is it needs a lot of work and a repaint as they put really tacky paint on it and a crappy wood dash. So it needs restored back to original.
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Old 04-13-2021, 07:18 PM   #39
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Just curious

Macan Turbo 4430 lbs
Cayenne Turbo 5000 lbs
X3 m40i or X3M 4300 lbs
X5 M50i or x5m 5000 lbs
Jeep SRT 5000 lbs
Ford Explorer ST 4500 lbs
Just thought Iíd list the ballpark weights. 4300 lbs is the lowest weight out of any of them.

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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
Can't afford two cars but you can afford one $60k+ car?

Yeah that was my point. We arenít talking about entry level vehicles so that argument about 2 cars is pretty stupid. Iíd buy a slightly used minivan and a BRZ before having a testicle or both removed.

This is bad when enthusiasts have been suckered into the SUV/CUV bs. It spells the end, at least for anything affordable. These are definitely the last days of disco. Definitely my last round of musical chairs. After these next FMCís, gonna be nothing but CUV/SUV/Truck/EV. Manuals = the dodo.
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Old 04-13-2021, 07:26 PM   #40
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Pre, I hope you are wrong. You certainly capture the trend though, if it were not for the coming of electric cars I would be certain. However I do remember the example of the convertible, there were almost none left at one point and then people decided they wanted them. Not quite the same as a manual is a skill but I think there is a chance it will hang on a niche segment offering. It is not like they have to invent new technology. We will see what happens with manuals, I think a few will hang on. I will give you an example Porsche was moving away from them and found they needed to hang in there and keep them. On the other hand Ferrari has eliminated them. if you are enough of a curmudgeon though you can always find an old manual rotting in a barn that no one knows how to drive any more but you. Imagine how great that would be in 20 years and all the amazing cars the likes of you and I could find bargains on because no one knows how to drive a manual anymore.
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Old 04-14-2021, 01:39 AM   #41
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Multiple people in this thread need to stop being so obtuse.

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Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
blah blah blah
We get it. You don't like SUVs. Nobody cares.

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Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
A conversation about good handling vehicles, and all the vehicles mentioned weigh 3000lbs or more.

Gimme a break guys.

Go drive something actually known for handling like a 7, Europa, Spitfire, X19 or Elan. Any one of those or similarly weighted, low slung cars from the 60's and 70's will eat a Miata's lunch for handling.

I'd rather own a $2,000 ****box little British car, and a Honda Odyssey than any of the Multi purpose vehicles being tossed around in this thread.
In the alternative. I have a modified Elise on R888r at my disposal (and 997.2 GT3) along with the most tossable 575M in the world and recently sold my Viper built to turn/stop with 315 R888r FRONT tires (335 rear) and am impressed after seeing the Urus in the canyons while I was following in an 800bhp 2WD Murcielago on R888r.

While the featherweights have their perks, they have some substantial pitfalls at overall performance . . . and, in general, nobody acknowledges their existence because they are a one trick pony. The SUVs are sought after because they can do so much and really are able to throw their weight around to be impressive . . . not to mention how easily they gain power and drop weight.

The only "SUV" I've ever owned was a pre-GM Hummer and I outran every single Subaru entry (including an STi rally car) racing on a frozen lake a decade ago with it. 195hp, mid-engine, 6710lbs (dry & without that winch or brush guard), 4wd system and a great steering angle. . . there wasn't a Miata to be found that day.


Last edited by White out; 04-14-2021 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 04-14-2021, 02:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by White out View Post
Multiple people in this thread need to stop being so obtuse.



We get it. You don't like SUVs. Nobody cares.


In the alternative. I have a modified Elise on R888r at my disposal (and 997.2 GT3) along with the most tossable 575M in the world and recently sold my Viper built to turn/stop with 315 R888r FRONT tires (335 rear) and am impressed after seeing the Urus in the canyons while I was following in an 800bhp 2WD Murcielago on R888r.

While the featherweights have their perks, they have some substantial pitfalls at overall performance . . . and, in general, nobody acknowledges their existence because they are a one trick pony. The SUVs are sought after because they can do so much and really are able to throw their weight around to be impressive . . . not to mention how easily they gain power and drop weight.

The only "SUV" I've ever owned was a pre-GM Hummer and I outran every single Subaru entry (including an STi rally car) racing on a frozen lake a decade ago with it. 195hp, mid-engine, 6710lbs (dry & without that winch or brush guard), 4wd system and a great steering angle. . . there wasn't a Miata to be found that day.

I see. Because this one time at band camp, you had this fantasy like you were Seal Team 6 edition Stig and doriftoed a Canyonero around a bunch of teenagers driving an STi badged Imprezza 2.5i in an icy parking lot, the laws of physics have decided curve in a manner that makes a 2+ton lifted vehicle a great starting base for asphalt performance machine.

It's not SUVs I dislike, I dislike needlessly driven large heavy vehicles.

If you really need a do it all vehicle you should be in a Minivan. Fits more people than an SUV, Hauls more sheet rock than a pickup, drives like a car.

The only feasible reason I can see for an extreme "performance" SUV is that maybe there is a little insecurity involved and you would like people to know that yes, the wife is in fact slinging around a 10 inch schlong under her skirt.
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Old 04-14-2021, 10:16 AM   #43
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The only feasible reason I can see for an extreme "performance" SUV is that maybe there is a little insecurity involved and you would like people to know that yes, the wife is in fact slinging around a 10 inch schlong under her skirt.



Performance is more defined in the SUV segment.
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Old 04-14-2021, 10:36 AM   #44
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I started reading this and had to laugh. I once thought like both sides of this argument and have argued feverishly to defend both positions. Now I just do not give a crap what somebody else drives and encourage everybody to buy what makes them smile and enjoy life.
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Old 04-14-2021, 12:12 PM   #45
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Now I just do not give a crap what somebody else drives and encourage everybody to buy what makes them smile and enjoy life.
Unfortunately I'm not rich like whiteout, so me getting what I want out of a car directly depends on it being mass produced, which directly depends on it being popular amongst the masses. Ergo, everyone needs to love what I love for me to get happiness, so here I am trying to convince all these would-be performance SUV buyers to reconsider.
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Old 04-14-2021, 12:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
Unfortunately I'm not rich like whiteout, so me getting what I want out of a car directly depends on it being mass produced, which directly depends on it being popular amongst the masses. Ergo, everyone needs to love what I love for me to get happiness, so here I am trying to convince all these would-be performance SUV buyers to reconsider.
Good luck. Convincing everyone on NASIOC will get you 1% closer to mass market production.
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Old 04-14-2021, 01:02 PM   #47
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I started reading this and had to laugh. I once thought like both sides of this argument and have argued feverishly to defend both positions. Now I just do not give a crap what somebody else drives and encourage everybody to buy what makes them smile and enjoy life.
Yeah, buy everything and live with it for a few months and move on.

If you value performance over all else, don't put yourself in a position where compromises must be made. While trends of vehicles to become big fat heavy things is real, it's not new. As is the mini van vs suv argument.

Here, this is my current favorite car. Why is it my favorite car? I hate big fat heavy cars:

Quote:
2021 Audi RS 6 Avant/Curb weight
4,960 lbs
Perhaps it's not the end all be all and I did check myself into the compromise clinic. But that Ford Explorer ST weighs considerably less, has more seating options and is over half the price and will tow an Airstream. Yeah, I guess people who need compromise go with the cheaper lighter SUV for that reason. I don't lust after an Explorer ST, but I can't justify the RS6 either.

Since these arguments are all grievances using apples and oranges, perhaps start a thread in OT. Meanwhile, this Exploder ST is checking a lot of boxes for the existentially compromised.
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Old 04-14-2021, 03:04 PM   #48
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I started reading this and had to laugh. I once thought like both sides of this argument and have argued feverishly to defend both positions. Now I just do not give a crap what somebody else drives and encourage everybody to buy what makes them smile and enjoy life.
Totally agree. What makes people happy is what makes people happy. I have despised SUV's since their rise in popularity seeing it has led to the degradation of cars. That said as much as I tried to convince myself that I could make an M2 work as a daily I got tired of having to stuff kids in the back seat and having to pick and choose what roads I could take to and from home in the winter. For me to get into an SUV it had to be something like the X3M that goes like stink and handles like a well sorted car. The best part for me is that I don't care about this vehicle as I usually do with my vehicles and as a person with mild OCD that's a good thing. That said now the M3 will be coming with AWD I will probably move into one of those after the LCI refresh. I'm still a car guy at heart.
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Old 04-15-2021, 03:36 AM   #49
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I see. Because this one time at band camp, you had this fantasy like you were Seal Team 6 edition Stig and doriftoed a Canyonero around a bunch of teenagers driving an STi badged Imprezza 2.5i in an icy parking lot, the laws of physics have decided curve in a manner that makes a 2+ton lifted vehicle a great starting base for asphalt performance machine.
My point was actual use of a non-performance 'SUV' on a track and managed to outrun cars named in this thread around a track with turns and others 'enthusiast cars' simply didn't show up.

Closest Subaru was a caged GD STi rally car. . . and this was a decade ago so bagged Subarus (and vapes) were only a dream in an elementary school kid's eyes

ps. it's over 3 tons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
It's not SUVs I dislike, I dislike needlessly driven large heavy vehicles.

If you really need a do it all vehicle you should be in a Minivan. Fits more people than an SUV, Hauls more sheet rock than a pickup, drives like a car.

The only feasible reason I can see for an extreme "performance" SUV is that maybe there is a little insecurity involved and you would like people to know that yes, the wife is in fact slinging around a 10 inch schlong under her skirt.
It's because the performance SUV is more fun to drive than the non. Have you seen what manual Cayenne GTS goes for vs. the auto trans?

Plus, you can never have enough powerrrrrr.
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Old 04-15-2021, 10:10 AM   #50
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LOLOL at the people who think they have any right to tell others what they NEED to drive.

The unmitigated Hubris of it all is staggering.
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