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Old 10-15-2019, 02:29 PM   #176
PDXREALTOR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
If it glazed the cylinders the rings just wouldn’t seat. If it diluted the oil badly I’d expect a bearing to go way before this damage.
The rings were seated. No oil use at all until I used the top end cleaner


Carbon breaking off and getting stuck between cylinder and bore was all I could think of but didn’t see pictures of the pistons out of block to know. So I wasn’t sure and why I asked. Only time Ive heard of issues using that product was on super tired motors where the carbon was actually helping the situation and removing it is the nail in coffin for the old engine. I’ve literally used the product on easily over 20+ cars in the past never any engine problems after. JW why did you want to run the product on a fresh engine?

Possible carbon build up on valves

I did know the evidence would be hard to prove just like blown motors, builders count on that ..JK...kinda. It’s very tricky to prove but to me in this situation there has so many other more common/logical reasons for the outcome....like
Who tuned car, Was tune dialed in from day one?

I tuned it. Yes it had a solid break in tune. No one touched the car or motor but me and the builer
Seems like tons of carbon build up for a motor with only 1k also has an orange color to it like an octane booster was ran through the engine.

All that carbon build didn't happen in the first 1k miles. Most if not all is from driving around consuming a quart every 250 miles... loss of oil control

Torco- used it for a tank or two on the last drive

Do you have an oil temp gauge in the car? You’d be surprised how long it takes vs H20 temp.

Yes - oil temp and pressure, and water

Do you know the PTW specs and which pistons were used? I do, but that's not my info to share.

Edit: just looked at that last picture of heads again...is that one valve chipped and did any hit the pistons? No - part of the picture. No chipped or damaged valves

FWIW: Only reason I posted here is because when people started asking questions in the thread you made in the built motor section you said to discuss it here.

No worries. If you spend some time reading a few pages back it may answer some questions for you.
Answers in bold
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Old 11-17-2019, 05:56 PM   #177
2slofouru
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1- Why did you use top end cleaner? (forgot to ask previously)

2- How's she doing now, any progress?
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Old 11-17-2019, 06:14 PM   #178
PDXREALTOR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
1- Why did you use top end cleaner? (forgot to ask previously)

2- How's she doing now, any progress?
During a leak down test I got a fluctuating reading. My thought was carbon build up.....

How's she doing now? Lol... Geeze...

I double checked valve lash and found the exhaust on cyl. 4 a touch loose. It was recommended the lash be tightened up so they sent me two buckets and just like that the lash was right on the money.

The cams didn't feel right on re-assembly (a bit tight, and noisy) so I started to investigate what was going on and in the process found a bent cam. Bent .004 ....... It required the buckets all be removed so the cam could rotate far enough to bind up.

The above mis-fortune, though it appears a setback, was a blessing in disguise. Had it not been for loose lash, and the proceeding tight cams on install, I would have had failure on startup if not cranking. I don't recall the clearance of the cam journals but I'm sure it's not enough to allow a .004 out of round cam to rotate.

At this point all I can do is laugh. I decided to just make the 17 the 'race car' and that state of mind change has really helped with the grin and bear it mind set that's missing. There is no sense of urgency any more.

We are going to get a second 15+ sti. We have a new mildly built motor here and the BW 7163 kit. I'll cat it and keep it a bit more street friendly. will have a mild tune on it. Definitely, not the 35 psi I was running on the 17.


For the 17 I just picked up Radium surge tank with Wallbro 450.
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Old 11-17-2019, 06:46 PM   #179
2slofouru
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Go big something something! Well crap...that's a crazy unlucky streak.

I've turned mine over by hand but the ring friction makes it tough to tell if anything else is abnormal. Larry's sold me on the gsc parts' quality, can only hope I don't mess up any of their work! ***128514;

It really would suck taking me so long only to find something wrong before it's streetable. Mine is taking so much longer, at least you've been able to enjoy yours for a while.
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Old 11-17-2019, 06:57 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
Go big something something! Well crap...that's a crazy unlucky streak.

I've turned mine over by hand but the ring friction makes it tough to tell if anything else is abnormal. Larry's sold me on the gsc parts' quality, can only hope I don't mess up any of their work! ***55357;***56834;

It really would suck taking me so long only to find something wrong before it's streetable. Mine is taking so much longer, at least you've been able to enjoy yours for a while.
I thought about bumping up to an 8374 but in reality the 7670 will fit my needs better ...

Mine wasn't timed. I was turning the cams with just the cam and one hand, or the cam and a gear. I probably spent an hour twisting cams and contemplating if there was an issue or not. A lot of horror stories show up when you start researching tight cams sti.

Had it been timed there is absolutely zero chance I would have felt it. Hell I could barely tell with just the gears on.


Do you have a build thread?
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Old 11-17-2019, 07:15 PM   #181
2slofouru
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Sort of a build thread, but basically what I've done since my first subaru minus my first ej18 to ej25d swap further back. Most pics are photofuket so they are photofuked. It's not a long thread, but people have taught me a few things there and I've learned a bit over the years just being on the forums in general.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=1471118

Couple of (still current) motor pics, couldn't get them to show:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...622327&page=35
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:24 PM   #182
PDXREALTOR
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Been a while so I thought it was time for an update. Tried with little effort to sell the entire lot of parts. No success.

I finally got the second motor in and fired up, back in late 2019. Had a knock on startup, and some OCV issues. After some minor trouble shooting I just ended up shipping the car down to the Steve at S&S Subaru Perf. and he went through the entire motor.

He found I'd mis-aligned the driver side intake cam with the dowel pin hole on the AVCS gear. This would explain my OCV/AVCS check engine light. When I torqued the gear on I had the cam dowel pin lined up only about half way over the gear alignment hole. Lucky for me it didn't move or shear off the cam pin. It actually created a new 'hole' for the cam dowel pin. Lol.... Amazing really.... so I'm told.

Builder thought this was the source of the knock. To be sure we decided to break the entire motor down and check it all. Done. Go pick the car up and after about 2 hours of driving I noticed the same ticking/knocking noise. *Sigh* ... while frustrating I'm now getting used to these kind of setbacks. Ended up driving it home from Southern Cali back to PDX without issue, but knocking sound is changing tones, getting louder and quieter at same operating temps, etc. Not a normal Subaru 'knock/tick'. Next up is 32 psi to see if the thing stays together. We decided not to do that, and I prepared it for another truck ride down to Sourthern California.

That's where it is now. Getting a new block/pistons as that's where it's thought the problem is. Hoping that solves it. It's reached a point now that all of it is way over my head. I understand it but trying to hang with guys who have been building and racing all their lives is pointless and only wastes their time. haha....

Picked up a few new parts

1st is compliments of Steve at S&S (my builder). These are eccentric idlers/tensioners that will allow fine tuning of the timing that may be slightly off due to decking of heads/engine blocks. He just put the finishing touches on them. I read a bit about them and it makes sense to me. Anyone with input or experience with these .... please share your thoughts!



Got some Cygnus X-1 Coilovers with roll center adj. kit.




Picked up the upgraded version of the Snow stage 4 meth injection kit. Will be going direct port with auto map switching. Likely ditching the Torco.

Will probably do the entire suspension this winter assuming things keep progressing.

That's all for now.
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:32 PM   #183
Scuby04STi
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So is there a reason you tow it all the way to southern cali for Subaru work? I know you had the engine built there (also not sure why) so I get that if its "warranty" but with all the resources in the Portland area it just seems like a lot of extra work.
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Old 07-08-2020, 07:52 PM   #184
2slofouru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
Been a while so I thought it was time for an update. Tried with little effort to sell the entire lot of parts. No success.

I finally got the second motor in and fired up, back in late 2019. Had a knock on startup, and some OCV issues. After some minor trouble shooting I just ended up shipping the car down to the Steve at S&S Subaru Perf. and he went through the entire motor.

He found I'd mis-aligned the driver side intake cam with the dowel pin hole on the AVCS gear. This would explain my OCV/AVCS check engine light. When I torqued the gear on I had the cam dowel pin lined up only about half way over the gear alignment hole. Lucky for me it didn't move or shear off the cam pin. It actually created a new 'hole' for the cam dowel pin. Lol.... Amazing really.... so I'm told.

Builder thought this was the source of the knock. To be sure we decided to break the entire motor down and check it all. Done. Go pick the car up and after about 2 hours of driving I noticed the same ticking/knocking noise. *Sigh* ... while frustrating I'm now getting used to these kind of setbacks. Ended up driving it home from Southern Cali back to PDX without issue, but knocking sound is changing tones, getting louder and quieter at same operating temps, etc. Not a normal Subaru 'knock/tick'. Next up is 32 psi to see if the thing stays together. We decided not to do that, and I prepared it for another truck ride down to Sourthern California.

That's where it is now. Getting a new block/pistons as that's where it's thought the problem is. Hoping that solves it. It's reached a point now that all of it is way over my head. I understand it but trying to hang with guys who have been building and racing all their lives is pointless and only wastes their time. haha....

Picked up a few new parts

1st is compliments of Steve at S&S (my builder). These are eccentric idlers/tensioners that will allow fine tuning of the timing that may be slightly off due to decking of heads/engine blocks. He just put the finishing touches on them. I read a bit about them and it makes sense to me. Anyone with input or experience with these .... please share your thoughts!



Got some Cygnus X-1 Coilovers with roll center adj. kit.




Picked up the upgraded version of the Snow stage 4 meth injection kit. Will be going direct port with auto map switching. Likely ditching the Torco.

Will probably do the entire suspension this winter assuming things keep progressing.

That's all for now.

It's an endless struggle!!! At least you've been able to enjoy yours a good bit!

So were the designers of those coilovers inspired by the band Rush? They look to be of good quality.

I had a set of crawford eccentric idle adjusters on my previous build, they allow you to align the timing absolutely perfectly, may take a couple of tries. When I tore down the last motor, the crawfords were already leaking grease...

This time I got the LIC version, likely the same bearing style but they have a slightly different center section. I'm hoping these don't leak, sort of pissed me off considering how much they cost. Crawford even had a disclaimer back then because they are "race parts" and they had a pretty low mileage recommended replacement interval. Had no idea they would actually crap out, amazingly my problem wasn't related, was a cracked liner.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:25 AM   #185
JarHarms
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Ohh those offset belt idlers are interesting. Looks like S&S made those with the dual row bearings. The Crawford and LIC versions are made with the single row bearings which is in part why those have a shorter service life.
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Old 07-09-2020, 02:42 PM   #186
PDXREALTOR
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The coilovers are definitely value options but, I couldn't find any bad info on them. I found opposite actually. They get a lot of praise for being both good quality and value. I thought it would be a good way to get started on the track and if I keep with it I can upgrade later.

I never knew about the idlers until recently when Steve showed them to me. I'd have looked at picking up a pair since it feeds nicely into my super duper anal must be perfect mentality. lol

I think Jar is going to inquire about them. Any info feel free to share it here Jar, as I will surely learn from your inquiry.
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Old 07-09-2020, 07:36 PM   #187
2slofouru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
Ohh those offset belt idlers are interesting. Looks like S&S made those with the dual row bearings. The Crawford and LIC versions are made with the single row bearings which is in part why those have a shorter service life.
How do they "looks like" "the dual row bearings"? Or did you check the S&S site? I can't tell the difference by looking at them, other than the offset section being slightly different. Is the bearing section wider? I wonder why LIC and crawford would use a single roller style instead, does it reduce friction or allow more room for the center section? I also notice the wider section is on the bottom of those while the LIC has it on top. (area with the adjusting bolt)

Last edited by 2slofouru; 07-09-2020 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:51 PM   #188
JarHarms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXREALTOR View Post
...
I never knew about the idlers until recently when Steve showed them to me. I'd have looked at picking up a pair since it feeds nicely into my super duper anal must be perfect mentality. lol

I think Jar is going to inquire about them. Any info feel free to share it here Jar, as I will surely learn from your inquiry.
I am cursed with the same mentality and yes I am waiting for an email form S&S. I will share what I find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
How do they "looks like" "the dual row bearings"? Or did you check the S&S site? I can't tell the difference by looking at them, other than the offset section being slightly different. Is the bearing section wider? I wonder why LIC and crawford would use a single roller style instead, does it reduce friction or allow more room for the center section? I also notice the wider section is on the bottom of those while the LIC has it on top. (area with the adjusting bolt)
Well for starters I can compare the photo to the parts I have on my desk. Those include a set of Subaru single row idlers, a set of LIC offset idlers, and a set of Subaru dual row idlers. I said looks like as opposed to they are since the photo only shows the front. It appears the bearing stack is wider like a dual row. Seeing the rear photo would help..but none. The S&S website does not have idlers listed (they are new) and I would not say their website is info plentyful anyways. I am waiting for S&S to confirm if they are in fact dual row and will let you know. Pretty certain I will pick up a set to use rather than the LICs set I have. Single rows can't provide the durability I am looking for...since I am super picky.

I would bet LIC and Crawford sets were designed around the single row idlers due to it being able to accept their offset insert. Look at the Subaru dual row idlers. They will not accept a press-in insert since the inner race includes the mounting feature. S&S must have found bearings that work with their insert.

Yes the LICs have a shoulder on the front. Which I bet is mostly there as extra space for the hex feature. The Subaru oem insert is pressed in w/o any shoulders and that is not their failure point. These aren't going to fail with the bearing walking forward off the insert as long as the interference fit was done well.

*Took a bit of fussing to get a set in my hands for a look over.
These are certainly made with dual roller bearings of a reputable quality. They do not come with any hardware, instructions, or suggested TQ spec. I can deal with the lack of instructions and TQ specs but the hardware sort of sucks. The factory bolts are going to be too short, maybe the earlier bolts would be the correct length. Personally if I were to need offset idlers on any engine I am working on I would hands down rather have these over the single row types (Crawford no longer makes theirs). The hitch with these offset idlers would be only to use them if you know how to set them up correctly....this is likely <5% of those thinking they need these.

Last edited by JarHarms; 07-25-2020 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 07-10-2020, 06:55 AM   #189
2slofouru
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I also don't notice subaru oems failing much either, at least not at the rate my Crawfords started leaking grease. They didn't have slack, just traces of grease spinning out toward the edges. Two rows is obviously more stout, but not sure that's necessary considering oems aren't. Again, not saying two row won't be more reliable. I do wonder why SandS chose to use that bearing.

Also, if we are going by the center section width, the oem cogged idler appears to be wider, may be two row.
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