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Old 11-14-2019, 11:55 PM   #601
bdubblu
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Oh yeah... and in that article Attia mentions that fat cell loss doesn’t happen as much in adults. I heard another researcher say that we don’t lose the cells at all. We just empty the fat out of the fat cells. I found that to be a very interesting phenomena. Once your body makes a fat cell, it’s essentially there for life. Crazy....
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:09 AM   #602
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That's the idea behind lipo removal. And then you can't get as fat again, right?
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:36 AM   #603
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That's the idea behind lipo removal. And then you can't get as fat again, right?
The problem with that approach is that it doesn't address underlying metabolic causes for getting fat in the first place. (Even if they could scoop out visceral fat, my strong guess is that the visceral fat is a symptom of the metabolic anomaly, not the cause of it. Scooping it out wouldn't make one healthy.)
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:37 AM   #604
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Blood glucose 66 mg/dL this morning, for the record. That was at 62 hours in.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:13 AM   #605
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That's the idea behind lipo removal. And then you can't get as fat again, right?
Other fat cells just bloat up to compensate.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:45 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
The problem with that approach is that it doesn't address underlying metabolic causes for getting fat in the first place. (Even if they could scoop out visceral fat, my strong guess is that the visceral fat is a symptom of the metabolic anomaly, not the cause of it. Scooping it out wouldn't make one healthy.)
And the surgical removal of adipocytes and their associated endocrine badness seems to have no meaningful effect on metabolic health, which I always found interesting. The research is somewhat limited, though.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:51 AM   #607
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And the surgical removal of adipocytes and their associated endocrine badness seems to have no meaningful effect on metabolic health, which I always found interesting. The research is somewhat limited, though.
Here's one paper that suggests insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome markers are improved after 2.7 +/- 0.7 kg of liposuction:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...07122603005848

But then here's an NEJM one where no effect was shown:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa033179

Interesting.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:58 AM   #608
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Yeah the tiny studies are a bit hard to interpret.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:43 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Blood glucose 66 mg/dL this morning, for the record. That was at 62 hours in.
DOOD! That's super low. I bet your GKI is like close to 1.

Do you feel superhumanly smart?
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:50 PM   #610
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DOOD! That's super low. I bet your GKI is like close to 1.

Do you feel superhumanly smart?
I feel suuuuuuper SMRT
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:54 PM   #611
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That's the idea behind lipo removal. And then you can't get as fat again, right?
Fat cells are created by the body pretty easily. It may take some time, but they can be replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
The problem with that approach is that it doesn't address underlying metabolic causes for getting fat in the first place. (Even if they could scoop out visceral fat, my strong guess is that the visceral fat is a symptom of the metabolic anomaly, not the cause of it. Scooping it out wouldn't make one healthy.)
This is true... ESPECIALLY since many who lipo, don't change their lifestyles. If the only thing you do is get lipo, you're not really changing much about how your body processes things are you? The answer is no. Stored fat, or the lack of stored fat, does have some impact we know... otherwise weight loss wouldn't have any effect on BP and other symptoms. But proven many times over by dieters, weight can be put back on in no time. That means the subjects metabolic issues are easily reverted to problematic again.

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Other fat cells just bloat up to compensate.
That is somewhat true.... the body stuffs cells until they start refusing the storage (insulin resistance), but then the body amps up the insulin, and thus the metabolic problem occurs all over again. Meanwhile the body is generating new fat cells in response.

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And the surgical removal of adipocytes and their associated endocrine badness seems to have no meaningful effect on metabolic health, which I always found interesting. The research is somewhat limited, though.
My first comment covers this, however we can't discredit those who go through the process and DO change everything about their eating habits. If they started eating whole foods, lowered carbs, cut out sugar, exercised a little, then those metabolic issues go away. The lipo then becomes what I'd call a jumpstart on the weight loss. Although I find it unecessary, and would NEVER recommend it personally. I'd rather take a slower road and not get cut into.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:02 PM   #612
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In an effort to 1-UP Shika, I'm going to start performing in home biopsies, submitting myself to needle aspiration and real time metabolic observation.

Despite my wife's disapproval, I've repurposed my kitchen.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:06 PM   #613
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Old 11-15-2019, 02:12 PM   #614
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Comments section knows more about weight loss than Jillian Michaels. You can't really blame her: diet food industry pays her a LOT of money.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:21 PM   #615
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In an effort to 1-UP Shika, I'm going to start performing in home biopsies, submitting myself to needle aspiration and real time metabolic observation.

Despite my wife's disapproval, I've repurposed my kitchen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubblu View Post
Do you feel superhumanly smart?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
I feel suuuuuuper SMRT
My BIL was going for 102 ending today. 87 hours in, he had come up with the new and improved Grand Unified Theory. He was starting to get a cramp, but sought out some salt and potassium.

Actually, I should probably check on him, haven't heard a peep since yesterday. I say you he dead.

This morning, I totally forgot about 16:8 for a sec and accidentally ate 2 cashews after coffee.
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:00 PM   #616
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Fat cells are created by the body pretty easily. It may take some time, but they can be replaced.
Something like 10% die and are replaced every year.
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:25 PM   #617
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Fat cells are created by the body pretty easily. It may take some time, but they can be replaced.
It doesn't even take that long.

https://news.yale.edu/2015/03/02/stu...eliminate-them

Quote:
Once fat cells form, they might shrink during weight loss, but they do not disappear, a fact that has derailed many a diet. Yale researchers in the March 2 issue of the journal Nature Cell Biology describe how - and just how quickly - those fat cells are created in the first place.

Young mice fed an obesity-inducing diet fail to produce fat cells if they lack a key pathway involved in the sensing of nutrients, the study showed. In addition the new study also revealed that fat cell production starts within a day of starting a high-fat diet.

"In studying what happens before these animals become obese, we found that this fat-producing response occurs unbelievably quickly," said Matthew Rodeheffer, assistant professor of comparative medicine and of molecular, cellular, and developmental biology, and senior author of the paper.

Weight gained is caused by the creation and expansion of white fat cells, or adipose tissue. Dieting can shrink fat cells but not eliminate them, which is why people can gain weight back so quickly. The Yale team found that the activation of a nutrient signaling pathway called PI3-kinase/AKT-2 was necessary to produce fat precursor cells, which in turn produce adipose tissue. Normal mice began producing these precursor cells within 24 hours of starting a high-fat diet.

Rodeheffer stressed that this pathway has other key functions, such as glucose regulation, and probably cannot be safely targeted in people.

"However, it may be possible to inhibit the generation of more fat cells in obesity and increase our understanding how dietary changes drive increased fat mass," he said.
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:41 PM   #618
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Almost 70 hours in. Checked sugars a few more times to see if that was a fluke, and got 71 and 67 at two more points.

Time to ride home soon and then start eating, likely around 71 hours.
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Old 11-16-2019, 03:50 PM   #619
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I tweeted a thing! (I had never tweeted anything of substance before.) Anyway, it refers to Dave Feldman's Low Carb Cholesterol Challenge.

(This is the same content super condensed from my big lipid post above.)



Edit: first point should refer to LDL-C < LDL-P.

Last edited by shikataganai; 11-16-2019 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 05:58 PM   #620
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Deep thought of the day that I’ve possibly shared before since this occurred to me a few weeks ago:

When I’m into a longer fast and therefore firmly in ketosis with the source of triglycerides endogenous (i.e. my own) fat, said fat will likely have a similar ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 as was in my diet when said fats were deposited initially, months or years ago.

(It wouldn’t be exactly the same since there’s probably a constant small flux in and out of any given fat cell.)

Eventually my fat deposited and retrieved will be consistently higher omega-3 in the ratio, which speaks to the possibility of a long-term slow benefit from this.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:42 AM   #621
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Deep thought of the day that I’ve possibly shared before since this occurred to me a few weeks ago:

When I’m into a longer fast and therefore firmly in ketosis with the source of triglycerides endogenous (i.e. my own) fat, said fat will likely have a similar ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 as was in my diet when said fats were deposited initially, months or years ago.

(It wouldn’t be exactly the same since there’s probably a constant small flux in and out of any given fat cell.)

Eventually my fat deposited and retrieved will be consistently higher omega-3 in the ratio, which speaks to the possibility of a long-term slow benefit from this.


Awwww snap. You’re going next level right here. But alas... that conclusion would be too simple and make life too easy. Omegas process differently. So you’ve got to consider how each are stored, which the body might call for at a given time, which processes go into play, and how long each process takes, and how much is being used at that time or circumstance.

A good example is a portion the 3’s go to the brain. In a longer fast, your body supports the brain more readily. (This was a beneficial factor for our ancestors as they needed to find food in times of drought. A sharper mind would lend itself to finding food. )Point being is that your body may be calling on one type, one enzyme production, etc., and deplete that faster. And another slower. See where I’m going? The starting balance may be very well correlated with the ratios you had recently consumed. But as you go deeper into the fast that likely would be changed.

This article gets to some of the detail about what fat is used for what:
https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/omegafats.php
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:49 AM   #622
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Almost 70 hours in. Checked sugars a few more times to see if that was a fluke, and got 71 and 67 at two more points.

Time to ride home soon and then start eating, likely around 71 hours.


It’s interesting to see sugars rise during a fast. I was thinking that you kind of know where the bottom level is once you see a rise. This is where a continuous glucose monitor would be interesting. I’ll probably go down that road one day for my own curiosity. But they are a couple-few hundred bucks I think. So I’m not THAT interested at the moment.
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Old 11-17-2019, 11:55 AM   #623
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Yeah, a continuous glucose monitor would be interesting indeed. Will look into that in future for sure. The variance from 66-73 etc is well within the +/- 20% error on glucometers anyway.

In related insanity all parts are now in place. Haven’t done my first 40 microliter giant blood prick yet.

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Old 11-17-2019, 02:45 PM   #624
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First thoughts with the lipid meter:

- that is a hell of a lot of blood to fill the capillary tube!
- my Cholestech unit may be broken. Seems hung on Selftest running so didn’t get to run the cartridge that took so much blood to fill. eBay will hook me up.

Re CGM, which Peter Attia in particular is a big fan of, seeking to average 90 mg/dL throughout the day:

- Dexcom G6 seems the hot ticket. No calibration needed.
- $1,099 unit but it needs $120/pop sensors that last 10 days each. So $12/day in the long term.

Will do more reading on these machines and what scant evidence there might be for the longevity/non-diabetic use crowd.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:57 PM   #625
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Turns out the super cheap used-via-eBay machine is indeed properly broken. Back to the seller at their expense it shall go.

All that was wasted on my part was $2.48 between a test cartridge and a pipette/plunger combo. But I do not know of my lipid status at this moment… : sadpanda:
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