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Old 02-25-2020, 02:14 PM   #26
dwf137
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The big smogs of UK grey London was mostly cause by home and space heating. They burn coal, oil and Peat moss or turf in stoves that are basically external combustion with zero catalyst or abatement. UK IC motors have traditionally far less environmental regulations than USA. They did not stop using leaded fuels till 2000. This was always a problem for grey market importers to pass USA specs when bringing in EU autos.
Well then, it's a good thing they're stepping up and trying to right their historical wrongs, no?
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Old 02-27-2020, 02:18 PM   #27
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Well then, it's a good thing they're stepping up and trying to right their historical wrongs, no?
It's all about priorities like electrical grid, space heating. So how do they generate the electricity to charge the cars ? USA is lucky we have many rivers to Hydroelectric and even powered much our industrial age with water wheels direct drive to machines. Battery electrics make same pollution just move it to poor neighborhoods who have power plants.
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Old 02-27-2020, 03:34 PM   #28
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The UK should focus on left hand drive cars before battery. Think about all the unnecessary parts manufacturing required to create the separate cars to meet their silly requirements. Could save a polar bear with the reduced footprint on the environment.
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:01 PM   #29
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It's all about priorities like electrical grid, space heating. So how do they generate the electricity to charge the cars ? USA is lucky we have many rivers to Hydroelectric and even powered much our industrial age with water wheels direct drive to machines. Battery electrics make same pollution just move it to poor neighborhoods who have power plants.
Except UK is actively working on that front as well. They have a cost on carbon, which has all but eliminated coal from their electricity generation. And their building codes aren't much behind the US, it's just that they have a lot of older homes. And just like we're not requiring 80's eras cars to meet modern emissions requirements, you can't require someone to upgrade their home... it'll take time.

The grid and cars can both get greener at the same time...
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:01 PM   #30
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It's all about priorities like electrical grid, space heating. So how do they generate the electricity to charge the cars ? USA is lucky we have many rivers to Hydroelectric and even powered much our industrial age with water wheels direct drive to machines. Battery electrics make same pollution just move it to poor neighborhoods who have power plants.
You seem to be unaware of how Europe is generating power these days. Look it up.
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:12 PM   #31
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15 years should be enough time to meet the goal. This is an excellent proposal and I hope similar ones are adopted worldwide.
I actually agree. Heard the same concerns when increased mpg requirements were announced in the 90's, but industry found a way, despite them saying it wasn't possible to meet. I'm not a big fan of government intervention for the most part, but sometimes it's needed to point commerce in the right direction. I think we all agree less fossil fuel burning is better. Having said that, I think China will be the lead in this regard (I'm sure that they likely are already), mostly because the issue of pollution is much more acute there.
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:42 PM   #32
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You seem to be unaware of how Europe is generating power these days. Look it up.
yes, inefficiently as it is the most expensive electricity in the world. They shut down coal and nuclear before they could. They have had to bring on line more coal to supplement the lack of reliable power.
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Old 02-27-2020, 04:50 PM   #33
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It's like any stretch goal. Set the goal for 2035 it might happen in 2050. Set it for 2050 and it will just get more delayed. They're going through this in the US Space program right now.

No sense of urgency = nothing gets done.
No, no, nothing can ever be done. At least not until after I'm gone. Then things can change.

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I actually agree. Heard the same concerns when increased mpg requirements were announced in the 90's, but industry found a way, despite them saying it wasn't possible to meet. I'm not a big fan of government intervention for the most part, but sometimes it's needed to point commerce in the right direction. I think we all agree less fossil fuel burning is better. Having said that, I think China will be the lead in this regard (I'm sure that they likely are already), mostly because the issue of pollution is much more acute there.
Seriously, where are all the "they're killing performance cars" people now while we have the fastest cars in history? Fewer V12s but hilariously faster cars in every fathomable metric. It's all hysterical pearl clutching.
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Old 02-27-2020, 05:01 PM   #34
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They have the power grid infrastructure ready to support everyone charging their cars?
They barely have the infrastructure to handle all the electric tea pots people use at the same time each day.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index....operas-finish/

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This phenomenon, officially dubbed TV Pickup by the engineers at the National Grid, is largely thanks to a unique combination of the UK Citizens’ long standing love affair with soap operas, the country’s enjoyment of a good cup of tea (and more recently instant coffee), and the almost universal adoption of electric kettles throughout the UK (a relatively power intensive device, typically using around 1,000-1,500 watts).

The result is that for about 3-5 minutes after the end of a popular show, there’s a rather large uptick in demand for electricity across the country. As you probably guessed, this is roughly the amount of time it takes to boil a full kettle of water in such an electric kettle.

The reason why these surges pose such a large problem is because, to quote an energy operations manager from the National Grid, Alan Smart:

The way to think about it is to imagine you are in your car and your challenge is to keep the car at exactly 50 miles an hour. You press on the accelerator as you go up the hill, and you ease off on the other side. We can’t store electricity in any great quantity, so we have to forecast second by second, minute by minute.
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Old 02-27-2020, 05:20 PM   #35
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.... has anyone considered how they plan to address the sustainability of the rare metals required for the batteries to make this even remotely viable?

VW, along with a handful of auto manufacturers, have been banding together to try to address this - changing an entire Nation's automotive fleet over will be a monstrous task.

There's also the economical side of things, unless the price point of EV cars dramatically drops some people may be unable to afford to buy an EV car. That's not to say their respective government couldn't subsidize it, but at what actual cost?

Where's the actual savings here - do they think they'll be able to get China on board?
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Old 02-28-2020, 03:14 AM   #36
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Let's not bring that up, we need to spend the next hundred years producing these vehicles before we assess any sort of environmental impact. Then we can all join the cult of what ever comes after EV's.
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Old 02-28-2020, 08:50 AM   #37
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On the subject of infrastructure, time of use plans help a lot. When it costs 1/3 to charge at midnight, people are going to charge at midnight the majority of the time. You just need to have a level 2 charger so that you can juice up within the short window.

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.... has anyone considered how they plan to address the sustainability of the rare metals required for the batteries to make this even remotely viable?

VW, along with a handful of auto manufacturers, have been banding together to try to address this - changing an entire Nation's automotive fleet over will be a monstrous task.

There's also the economical side of things, unless the price point of EV cars dramatically drops some people may be unable to afford to buy an EV car. That's not to say their respective government couldn't subsidize it, but at what actual cost?

Where's the actual savings here - do they think they'll be able to get China on board?
There are rumors that Tesla will have a Cobalt free battery coming out soon. We'll see.

The cost issue depends in large part on scaling up. Think of it this way: if regulations continue on their current path, in 5 years ICE engines will be more expensive (more emissions equipment) and batteries will be cheaper due to larger scale.
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:28 PM   #38
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yes, inefficiently as it is the most expensive electricity in the world. They shut down coal and nuclear before they could. They have had to bring on line more coal to supplement the lack of reliable power.
France's electricity is still over 70% nuclear despite politicians. Most of the remaining 30% is hydro.

EDIT: just an anecdote, put when I was in engineering prep school in Paris, I mentioned blackouts/brownouts to some of the other students and they asked me what I was talking about.
Some of these guys had never experienced losing power in 18+ years. That was back in 1996.
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:42 PM   #39
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On the subject of infrastructure, time of use plans help a lot. When it costs 1/3 to charge at midnight, people are going to charge at midnight the majority of the time. You just need to have a level 2 charger so that you can juice up within the short window.



There are rumors that Tesla will have a Cobalt free battery coming out soon. We'll see.

The cost issue depends in large part on scaling up. Think of it this way: if regulations continue on their current path, in 5 years ICE engines will be more expensive (more emissions equipment) and batteries will be cheaper due to larger scale.
Regardless, once the pack is no longer viable, many (most?) materials can be reclaimed.


Can’t say the same thing about an old gas tank.

Edit: Midnight charging? Yup. Our charger is programmed to start after 11. If we need juice now, we just push the on button.


Seriously, our Leaf has been the most “don’t have to think about it” car I have owned. More so than an EJ22 early 90’s Subaru.

“Is it still clattering? Then there’s still something oil like in it, it’s fine”
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:58 PM   #40
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Regardless, once the pack is no longer viable, many (most?) materials can be reclaimed.
The problem is and going to be is there's not much large scale recycling of these batteries. It requires both a mechanical and chemical extraction process to separate all the different metals uses. It's not cost effective yet. Some reports are saying it's cheaper to mine the materials than recycle. So in the meantime, they will have to be stored.

I hate to think it will turn into the recycling mess that we have now with consumer products. It's cheaper to produce more plastic from oil than to recycle many plastics.
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:20 PM   #41
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You seem to be unaware of how Europe is generating power these days. Look it up.
The Sun gets weaker Northern latitudes especially in winter and none at night when demand high. Wind ? the machine has very high maintenance and expense . So at nearly .40 KWhr compared to USA .11 KWhr there is a great incentive to use less. While media stokes this great agenda many refer to it as the great failed green agenda. But believers believe what makes them feel good. Germany rush to close N plants forgot they are down wind and direct target of fallout from France the nation with most plants. ARE YOU READY FOR $500 Mo electric bill ?
Play with this and see https://energy-charts.de/power.htm
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:23 PM   #42
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The problem is and going to be is there's not much large scale recycling of these batteries. It requires both a mechanical and chemical extraction process to separate all the different metals uses. It's not cost effective yet. Some reports are saying it's cheaper to mine the materials than recycle. So in the meantime, they will have to be stored.

I hate to think it will turn into the recycling mess that we have now with consumer products. It's cheaper to produce more plastic from oil than to recycle many plastics.
The future will be more interesting with regards to recycling than the current. The fact that mining the land for a finite resource is cheaper than recycling is just because someone has put an artificial "cost" to said resource so they can sell product. They'll keep that price low for as long as they can so that their CEO's get rich AF.

Some day though, the well will dry up. Oil is not unlimited. Nor are the minerals used in batteries.

Landfill mining will become a thing. Might be a long play, but those landfills are likely filled with what will become billions of dollars of goods in the future.
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Old 02-28-2020, 02:18 PM   #43
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The thing that gets me....I was always taught to look at root cause analysis. If we look at root cause this isn’t an internal combustion engine issue. It’s now cow farts, coal, none of that. The root cause is overpopulation.
Thank God someone but me finally sees this. I'm a firm believer that having more than two children is selfish. The people who preach about environmental concerns and have three or more children are huge hypocrites.
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Old 02-28-2020, 03:17 PM   #44
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Thank God someone but me finally sees this. I'm a firm believer that having more than two children is selfish. The people who preach about environmental concerns and have three or more children are huge hypocrites.


To be clear, I am not in agreement. Not saying that the population isn't a problem, but that people who are environmental stewards and have more than 2 kids aren't the "root" of the problem. Overpopulation is only a problem because of societies reliance on things like personal transportation. And the younger generations are solving those issues. Once the old guard moves on, things will get better. But until then, we're stuck in this world controlled by people who still want to live like they did when they were kids...

Last edited by dwf137; 02-28-2020 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 02-28-2020, 04:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Masterauto View Post
The Sun gets weaker Northern latitudes especially in winter and none at night when demand high. Wind ? the machine has very high maintenance and expense . So at nearly .40 KWhr compared to USA .11 KWhr there is a great incentive to use less. While media stokes this great agenda many refer to it as the great failed green agenda. But believers believe what makes them feel good. Germany rush to close N plants forgot they are down wind and direct target of fallout from France the nation with most plants. ARE YOU READY FOR $500 Mo electric bill ?
Play with this and see https://energy-charts.de/power.htm
Exponential growth of renewable energy = "failed green agenda". Checks out!
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Old 01-04-2021, 05:41 AM   #46
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Old 01-04-2021, 12:22 PM   #47
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Let's not bring that up, we need to spend the next hundred years producing these vehicles before we assess any sort of environmental impact. Then we can all join the cult of what ever comes after EV's.
Knowing my luck I will finally get an EV and the tree huggers will have unearthed some fatal flaw in them that is ruining the planet causing little girls to get mad on TV, governments to scramble up new unattainable laws, and politicians/elitists to capitalize financially. Rinse and repeat.
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