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Old 08-23-2015, 10:22 PM   #1
anjuna
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Default TGV delete tuning

NOTE - DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK! THERE ARE REASONS WHY PROTUNERS EXIST! MODIFYING YOUR CAR'S ECU AND/OR MAPS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, NOT MINE! I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL! IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT OR HAVE QUESTIONS, PAY A TUNER!

EDIT - MORE INFO ADDED

So after a week of playing around with this thing, I'll upload some of my tables to make all this TGV delete tuning less mysterious. Now you can buy whatever brand you'd like and worry less about who provides a base map and who doesn't.

I started all my work off the ETS intake Cobb Stg 2 map. NOTE - I have a 3 port EBCS. I had to modify the target boost tables (20.5psi target) and WGDC tables (increased from the OTS duty) but your mileage may vary!!!!

First, read the Cobb manual on tuning, then read the DIT tuning guide.
Second, read it again. We are going to do a few things that require some abilities between button pushing and complex thought. Be careful NASIOC.

I suggest that when you change your TGVs out for the deletes, you unplug/delete the EGR valve. If you are going to unplug it, make sure that the EGR duty is "0" when unplugging, which I BELIEVE can be attained at idle. So idling the car, shutting it off, then unplugging the EGR could work. Alternatively (and more suggested) you can do the IAG EGR delete.

Perform the TGV delete and EGR disable/delete.

Open ATR. Use your choice OTS map as the basemap.

Delete the codes - P2004, P2006, P2007, P2009, P2012, P2016, P2017, P2021 and P2022 (thx scotte30m3). These take care of the TGVs.
Delete the codes - P0400, P1492, P1493, P1494, P1495, P1496, P1497, P1498, P1499. These take care of the EGR.

Then copy all instances of (TGV OPEN) tables in ATR into the (TGV CLOSED) tables. This will make the conditions the same for any TGV actions the ECU still has programmed in. As of this date, there isn't a way to get into the TGV tables, so this is the most effective method for ensuring smooth operation.

Next, we are going to change a few choice tables. These may or may not be precisely optimal and are subject to change as I improve things, but here's where I'm at now and I'm very happy.

AVCS Exhaust Cam Retard.


AVCS Intake Cam.


Injector Timing.


Fuel Pressure.


EGR Timing Compensation.


Ignition Primary


Ignition Dynamic Advance


After you get all that taken care of, you shouldn't have any stumbles, codes, or oddness that has been reported with TGV delete tunes at the current time of this post.
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Last edited by anjuna; 09-01-2015 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Because awesome
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:34 PM   #2
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Here are the codes that have to be in unchecked P2004, P2006, P2007, P2009, P2012, P2016, P2017, P2021 and P2022. (The High Circuit code can probably be left alone but I didn't take any chances)
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:22 PM   #3
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MPS-DOM talked about copying those two tables in a post a while ago, and how that was the secret to tuning with TGV deletes.

Surprised you're posting about these though, weren't you the #1 hater for these things??
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:40 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclobe View Post
MPS-DOM talked about copying those two tables in a post a while ago, and how that was the secret to tuning with TGV deletes.

Surprised you're posting about these though, weren't you the #1 hater for these things??
I was.

Being upset by a company that lies to you about its compatibility, changes its word after it doesn't work out for you, and goes as far as to post your personal information online just because they're upset that you're upset with them made my blood boil.

Now that I actually have control of my tune, I'm interested in seeing what the deletes can do. I'll be interested to see if @arghx7 chimes in to say anything.

Worst case scenario I throw the flappers back in and call it a day. My biggest issue right now is the 2-2.5k light stumble. Hoping to get rid of that with the AVCS.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:47 AM   #5
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Did you delete EGR or keep it? As I've explained in this thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2687550 , the TGV speeds up and stabilizes the burn, especially during cooled EGR operation.

If you're going down the road of TGV delete you might as well get rid of EGR. In the early days of TGV deletes, EGR delete kits were not available.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:52 AM   #6
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I have the EGR kit, but haven't installed it yet. I think the kit is more than just deleting codes, for exactly the reason above.

You gotta tweak the tune after installing the kit, which I don't think a lot of people are doing.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:58 AM   #7
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I believe I remember seeing somewhere that when you do the TGV deletes you need to adjust AVCS for some reason. That being said it should remedy your issue. I believe Bren said it at some point but I could be wrong. Good luck!
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
Did you delete EGR or keep it? As I've explained in this thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2687550 , the TGV speeds up and stabilizes the burn, especially during cooled EGR operation.

If you're going down the road of TGV delete you might as well get rid of EGR. In the early days of TGV deletes, EGR delete kits were not available.
I'll keep this in mind. Do you know if there is any way to stop the operation of the EGR valve before deleting it? I'll order the block off kit today.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie1688 View Post
I have the EGR kit, but haven't installed it yet. I think the kit is more than just deleting codes, for exactly the reason above.

You gotta tweak the tune after installing the kit, which I don't think a lot of people are doing.
Interesting. I'll keep you up to date on this. Now that I have full control, a rod is going to travel through the block

I kid. I just want to entertain those who believe I will fail. Hey, if I do, I'll share the results and purchase a built short block. Right now im running a tad rich at WOT, need to get rid of the hesitation around 2-2.5k, and eventually tune for meth, but I think I'm beginning on a strong note.
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:14 AM   #9
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Well there are tables for the EGR being active, so I imagine similar to the TGV deletes you would only have to mess with those tables.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
I'll keep this in mind. Do you know if there is any way to stop the operation of the EGR valve before deleting it? I'll order the block off kit today.







Interesting. I'll keep you up to date on this. Now that I have full control, a rod is going to travel through the block

I kid. I just want to entertain those who believe I will fail. Hey, if I do, I'll share the results and purchase a built short block. Right now im running a tad rich at WOT, need to get rid of the hesitation around 2-2.5k, and eventually tune for meth, but I think I'm beginning on a strong note.
I've had the stumble for awhile, and its not terrible. Some people claimed to have tuned it out, but I haven't witnessed this myself.

I look forward to seeing what you can manage with the car.


As for disabling the EGR, I think you can. From the install guide, see page 13. http://www.iagperformance.com/v/vspf...6-WRX-v.02.pdf

I assume you can just unplug the valve, and for the most part you've disable the EGR system. You probably will still get blow by, but its a quick way to "disable" EGR without having to remove or install parts.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie1688 View Post
I've had the stumble for awhile, and its not terrible. Some people claimed to have tuned it out, but I haven't witnessed this myself.

I look forward to seeing what you can manage with the car.


As for disabling the EGR, I think you can. From the install guide, see page 13. http://www.iagperformance.com/v/vspf...6-WRX-v.02.pdf

I assume you can just unplug the valve, and for the most part you've disable the EGR system. You probably will still get blow by, but its a quick way to "disable" EGR without having to remove or install parts.
I'll take this approach to test and see if disabling the EGR helps. I have noticed that my stumble will get better and worse depending on a condition that I haven't yet identified, although I haven't done any logs with the EGR duty included. I'll probably make sure the duty is 0% and then unplug it. If this affects this particular stumble, I'll report back.

Thanks for the input everyone. Just looking forward to making as much information as public as possible. Keeping things behind closed doors is not beneficial to the community.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Keeping things behind closed doors is not beneficial to the community.
BUT IT DOES HELP KEEP THE CASH FLOW UP!!!!:ban ana:
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwelker View Post
I believe I remember seeing somewhere that when you do the TGV deletes you need to adjust AVCS for some reason. That being said it should remedy your issue. I believe Bren said it at some point but I could be wrong. Good luck!
I haven't seen these adjusted AVCS tunes as vendors are keeping them quiet. What I can tell you right now is that in the cruising range you need to stabilize burn. That means you want less residual gases and higher effective compression ratio. The TGV makes the engine burn better for improved fuel economy and emissions, but it causes a restriction in the intake system. The EGR creates a fuel economy benefit but it makes the engine burn worse and it can contribute to deposits. So take your pick of what you want.



If the TGV is deleted try advancing the exhaust cam by making the number in the table smaller. When you make the number in the exhaust AVCS go smaller, the red cam above shifts to the left Depending on intake cam timing, advancing the exhaust cam will reduce the overlap gas volume, by closing the exhaust valve earlier.

In certain areas you will want to raise effective compression ratio by advancing the intake cam - make the number in the map larger. Try running without negative advance--there should be negative areas in the map where the intake cam is retarded from the lockpin. Without the TGV it's not going to run so well there, because there isn't enough tumble motion in the combustion chamber to help with the really late valve closing. When you make the number in the intake AVCS go larger, the blue cam above shifts to the left

TGV, EGR, and AVCS Cheat Sheet

-- TGV closed - engine burns faster and better
-- TGV open - engine burns slower but head flows better
-- TGV deleted - engine burns even slower but head flows better than open TGV

-- EGR - valve open - better fuel economy (hard to quantify in real world, depends on driving...), slower burn, more unstable combustion, more carbon buildup risk
-- EGR - valve deleted - less carbon buildup risk, no risk of gases leaking past the valve, more stable burn if the tune is done right, loss of EGR fuel economy benefit (hard to quantify in real world)


-- in cruising range, advance the intake cam (higher number in map, blue cam profile shifts left) for higher effective compression. Residual gas (slower burn) will increase if you don't change exhaust cam timing, because now you have more overlap depending on how far you move the cam.

-- in cruising range, advance exhaust cam (lower number in map, red cam profile shifts left) to reduce residual gas (faster, more stable burn, worse for fuel economy)


Those are some hints on what direction you need to go. Your individual engine may have its own needs.

Last edited by arghx7; 02-17-2016 at 11:50 AM. Reason: TGV delete=worse burn than TGV open
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
I haven't seen these adjusted AVCS tunes as vendors are keeping them quiet. What I can tell you right now is that in the cruising range you need to stabilize burn. That means you want less residual gases and higher effective compression ratio. The TGV makes the engine burn better for improved fuel economy and emissions, but it causes a restriction in the intake system. The EGR creates a fuel economy benefit but it makes the engine burn worse and it can contribute to deposits. So take your pick of what you want.



If the TGV is deleted try advancing the exhaust cam by making the number in the table smaller. When you make the number in the exhaust AVCS go smaller, the red cam above shifts to the left Depending on intake cam timing, advancing the exhaust cam will reduce the overlap gas volume, by closing the exhaust valve earlier.

In certain areas you will want to raise effective compression ratio by advancing the intake cam - make the number in the map larger. Try running without negative advance--there should be negative areas in the map where the intake cam is retarded from the lockpin. Without the TGV it's not going to run so well there, because there isn't enough tumble motion in the combustion chamber to help with the really late valve closing. When you make the number in the intake AVCS go larger, the blue cam above shifts to the left

TGV, EGR, and AVCS Cheat Sheet

-- TGV closed - engine burns faster and better
-- TGV open - engine burns slower but head flows better
-- TGV deleted - engine burns slower but head flows better than open TGV

-- EGR - valve open - better fuel economy (hard to quantify in real world, depends on driving...), slower burn, more unstable combustion, more carbon buildup risk
-- EGR - valve deleted - less carbon buildup risk, no risk of gases leaking past the valve, more stable burn if the tune is done right, loss of EGR fuel economy benefit (hard to quantify in real world)


-- in cruising range, advance the intake cam (higher number in map, blue cam profile shifts left) for higher effective compression. Residual gas (slower burn) will increase if you don't change exhaust cam timing, because now you have more overlap depending on how far you move the cam.

-- in cruising range, advance exhaust cam (lower number in map, red cam profile shifts left) to reduce residual gas (faster, more stable burn, worse for fuel economy)


Those are some hints on what direction you need to go. Your individual engine may have its own needs.
Quite possibly the best response yet. I'll do some poking around and see what I can do.

I also don't think that most people will mess with the cam timing because all they care about is power. That's not really what I'm here for.

Thanks for the input. I'll keep everyone posted.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:14 PM   #15
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So would it be advised for a car that is already tuned for TGV to re tune for EGR delete? I was about to buy the kit from IAG a few weeks ago but never got around to it.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:17 PM   #16
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really depends how your engine runs on the current tune once you delete the EGR
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:23 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
really depends how your engine runs on the current tune once you delete the EGR
What would be the symptoms of it not running well?
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wireeater View Post
What would be the symptoms of it not running well?
Things working fine.
No hesitation in an RPM range like I'm experiencing.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:34 PM   #19
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What I'm saying is, look for normal problems like hesitations and excessive knock sensor activity, check out fuel trims, that sort of thing. Do the same thing you would do when you change other kinds of hardware that affect the way the engine runs. Depending on how the existing tune was put together there might need to be spark changes for example. The spark could now be too advanced because the EGR isn't running and the engine is burning faster. Or not.

I can only be vague here because this is very much a hypothetical without engine specific datalogs, maps, etc.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:37 PM   #20
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With my tgv deletes installed on two different e-tunes I had that hesitation 2-2500k like you are describing which in combination of it shuttering while cruising is why I took mine out. below operating temp it didn't have the issue. Before anyone says anything there were no leaks, I checked, reinstalled and such. None.
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:43 PM   #21
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Came here to post a dumbed down version of what ArghX said.

Posting to sub.

I am rooting for you!
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
Came here to post a dumbed down version of what ArghX said.

Posting to sub.

I am rooting for you!
I made some good progress by flattening out those tables and starting with "lockpin" values for each cam.

I also noticed there is a pretty big injector timing change in the 2-2.5krpm range. I flattened that out as well and the stumble seems to have gone away and the whole engine runs much much smoother.

It's not entirely gone though, just 90% lighter and occurs less often. I'll be unplugging the EGR today and seeing if this aleiviates the last little bit.

Once I get everything ironed out, I'll post up pictures of my tables here.

Also looking at the MAF corrected VE tables... would these be used to fix a lean condition on sudden throttle changes? I've got my MAF cal dialed in pretty well, but something else is happening with sudden throttle changes.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:14 PM   #23
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I wish had an AP, I would play around in the tables so I could see what exactly you're looking at.

I think there will need to be some avcs changes around there too, based on timing and scavenging strategies. Though I am not sure what kind of valve timing Cobb is running
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleJ View Post
I wish had an AP, I would play around in the tables so I could see what exactly you're looking at.

I think there will need to be some avcs changes around there too, based on timing and scavenging strategies. Though I am not sure what kind of valve timing Cobb is running
I'll post before and after screenshots.

I could always make the tune public by making a super compound excel file with all the tables included.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
Also looking at the MAF corrected VE tables... would these be used to fix a lean condition on sudden throttle changes? I've got my MAF cal dialed in pretty well, but something else is happening with sudden throttle changes.
Can you post a specific datalog of this?
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