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08-04-2020, 11:47 AM | #201 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 80649
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Columbia, SC
Vehicle:2000 2.5 Auto-X RSTi Sparkly |
If it's DAVCS heads it does need the 11mm. The SAVCS heads usually are paired with a 10mm unless you've got some bigger bearing clearances then it's kind of dealers choice. Either way, whatever pump goes on just check out the bypass bits and make sure it moves freely.
The bit about the temp range definitely says heat related. If we're talking metal growing due to heat it's definitely in the range.
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08-04-2020, 12:02 PM | #202 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 338863
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bethlehem,PA
Vehicle:PSM 05 WRX WGN 5MT 95 Caprice 6spd Track Rat |
Quote:
I'll definitely take you up on the offer when I make my way out there! Hoping to do a bit of a west coast Trackation once I get my 200k motor refreshed. I recently had a bit of a scare with an odd noise after driving the track car 11.5 hours to NCM and running all day in the 95 degree heat. Turned out to be loose header bolts and gnarly reverb from the MLS gasket vibrating. You guys been able to do any racing this season or just some limited testing? |
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08-29-2020, 04:23 PM | #203 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
No races this year, yet. But that doesn't mean we haven't been busy!
The 818R has been thru a heck of a process with figuring out why the transmission was overheating and the oil pressure was going whacky once the oil warmed up. The transmission heat was determined to be the Factory Five setup on the tilt of the trans & engine. Thanks to input from Zach at ZF Design we modified the rear trans mount to tilt the trans/engine down in the tail, closer to the way Subaru designed it in their cars, and voila, trans heat problems gone! We also solved the oiling issue when we realized the dry sump scavenge lines were too small. Now it's ready for lots of testing at ORP next weekend! The STI is getting a Mooresport front subframe, 2015+ P/S rack, and Volvo electric P/S pump. It may be ready for testing at ORP next week too. Be safe folks! |
08-31-2020, 09:35 AM | #204 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 338863
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bethlehem,PA
Vehicle:PSM 05 WRX WGN 5MT 95 Caprice 6spd Track Rat |
Very cool! What was the deal with the trans tilt? Partial oil starvation to a certain assembly causing high the temps I'm guessing?
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09-01-2020, 12:53 AM | #205 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 34361
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: MI
Vehicle:04.7 STI WRB IG @got2boostit2 |
Damn Gator, sounds like things are progressing well. Would like to see Volvo pump setup when you get a chance to take pictures.
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09-02-2020, 01:06 AM | #206 | ||
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
Quote:
Image Courtesy of ZF Design Red line would be fluid level inside the 5 speed as OEM mounted in a WRX, with the tail down. Blue line is a 7* angle This represents the fluid level in an 818 if the trans is installed per Factory Five assembly instruction. Magenta line is 7* angle but filled 1.5" above the full mark. Factory transmissions have roughly a 5.3-5.9* tail down slope from Subaru (5mt, 6mt, auto) The Factory Five installation has a 3.5* to 4.5* tail up slope in an 818. It's pretty clear that Subaru designed (Red line) it so the fluid would be level right at the axle seals, and just touching the bottoms of all the gears. When we install the trans in an 818 (Blue line) the oil barely touches the first set of gears, and by the time we get to 5th it's dry as a bone. Quote:
I forgot to mention the weird engine blow up we had....a bolt came loose off the dry sump baffle (unknown when), backing out until the head was caught by the crank and sheared off. The head was pushed around by sloshing oil until it got pushed all the way up into the passenger head by high G-Force oil, and it washed around in the head until it caught and jammed between the exhaust cam lobe and the lifter bucket. That instantly stopped the cam, which shredded the timing belt. 6 of the 8 valves in that head collided and bent. So never believe anyone who says oil does not flow up into the head and stay there when you're pulling 1.5 Gs! There is no other possible way that bolt head could get there. |
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09-02-2020, 11:36 AM | #207 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 338863
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bethlehem,PA
Vehicle:PSM 05 WRX WGN 5MT 95 Caprice 6spd Track Rat |
Man, that's surprising on both counts!
Glad you guys got the trans thing figured out at least. |
10-14-2020, 01:56 AM | #208 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
New Dry Sump Pump in the 818 is a win
Regarding the 818 but the solution applies to my STI: I didn't realize that I never posted how September testing went. It was a fail. The oil ran hot and the pressure dropped off dramatically. The same problem as before. We thought we could replicate it on the dyno but what worked there didn't work at the track. If we drove at 80-90% it was fine, but when I pushed it to 100% effort it failed.
We (Joshua Murray at Arcflash and myself) decided the scavenge pump with two stages just wasn't keeping up with even the 10mm pump. So we worked with John at Aviaid to come up with a new solution. He designed a 3 stage scavenge only pump where the third stage isn't as wide as the two main stages. That makes it possible to fit it in the A/C spot in front of the intake manifold. We figured why not try putting the third stage to the heads instead of a 3rd sump port? So we experimented with it. The third stage has a -10AN line to a Y, and from the Y it has two -6AN lines, one to each cylinder head cam cover. Arcflash in Bend welded in -6AN fittings to the cam covers and setup the new scavenge pump. That was the only engine change made, but what a change it made. Friday we went to ORP and ran the heck out of the car all day. What a difference having the heads scavenged made. Here's the summary of temps on my fastest lap of the day: The full graph: ECT is Engine Coolant Temp. Crankcase Pressure is in PSI, to convert that to Inches of Vacuum you multiply by 2 (approx). My Engine Coolant never went over 185 degrees all day. My Oil Temp hit one high of 205 F once, the rest of the day it was 197-199 F at most. Oil Pressure was excellent, never going under 50 for the entire lap. Hot idle at the end of a session was still 19 psi. Trans Temp is also solved for sure with the tail lowered, it maxed out 185. And Crankcase Vacuums of 11" to 16". Wow. In all my dry sumped Subarus (all with 2 stage Aviaid pumps) I've never been able to keep that much vacuum at full boost! Yippe Skippe! Here's the -AN fittings in the cam covers: .. Over the winter we are going to make the same mod to my STI enduro racer for sure. The STI will require more finesse on the cam cover AN fittings but we think it can be done. And on another note, we switched out the 818 springs for 500F / 700R. That cured the tires being ground down by the body at high compression loads. Next Up: This weekend is the annual Cascade Festival of Endurance at Portland International. Josh and I will be driving my STI in the 2 and 4 hour races on Saturday. The 818 is probably done for the season, we may try to squeeze in one more track day before the snows hit. It's already snowing in the passes. |
10-14-2020, 09:18 AM | #209 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 338863
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bethlehem,PA
Vehicle:PSM 05 WRX WGN 5MT 95 Caprice 6spd Track Rat |
Quote:
Those are some admirable temps and pressures for sure, haha. Do boxer Porsche turbo engines suffer all the same ills? Similar solutions? Factory or aftermarket? Not necessarily asking or expecting a response from you, but more wondering to myself... |
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10-14-2020, 09:38 AM | #210 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 306719
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Troy ,Michigan
Vehicle:2003 Sti Wagon @jn_garage |
Wow that is insane , the things you do for endurance racing
Your oil pressures and temps look great as well |
11-02-2020, 06:46 PM | #211 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
Quote:
The Porsche 911 GT3 has 7 scavenge pumps: "Dry-sump lubrication: Motorsport principles are also applied to the engine’s oil supply. Continued lubrication is vital, especially at very high engine speeds of up to 9,000 rpm and under the effects of the particularly high lateral and longitudinal acceleration that can be experienced on the racetrack. Seven scavenge pumps in total return the engine oil quickly and efficiently to the external oil tank. Together with a new oil pressure pump offering fully variable displacement, optimum oil pressure is assured in all operating conditions. This system provides reliable lubrication of hard-working components and increases the robustness of the engine under heavy use on the racetrack. Also new is the particularly efficient supply of oil to the heavily loaded connecting rod bearings. This is realised by a central oil feed into the crankshaft. Another innovation sees the oil efficiently defoamed by a centrifuge before it is delivered to the separate oil tank. This engineering solution originates from high-performance motorsport and is also used in the Porsche 919 Hybrid, an LMP1 class competitor." https://www.porsche.com/norway-son/n...p-lubrication/ Have you seen the new Corvette C8 dry sump system? It comes on ALL the new C8s. Pretty impressive system. They went to a great deal of trouble to design a dry sump for a 1.25 G V8 car. : https://www.autoweek.com/news/technology/a2154901/5-ways-2020-corvettes-midengine-layout-led-better-chevy-small-block-v8/#:~:text=It's%20all%20dry%20sump%2C%20all%20the%20 time&text=On%20the%202020%20Corvette%2C%20all,slos hing%20around%20in%20the%20crankcase. |
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11-02-2020, 06:48 PM | #212 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
We ran the STI in the Cascade Enduro again this year at Portland International Raceway. We took 3rd in class in the 4 hour enduro. We were held back by oil temp issues identical to the 818R. I think the solution is a 3 way scavenge like we did on the 818, so that is being done now.
The Mooresport Front Subframe Kit with a 2015 STI P/S rack and Volvo electric P/S pump worked great! No overheating issues, the steering feel was awesome. Thanks to all the folks here who helped us on that mod! We can't wait to get back to Non-Covid racing next spring! |
11-02-2020, 06:53 PM | #213 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
Porsche Test Dyno
This is a great visualization, just swap a flat Subaru engine for the Porsche.
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11-03-2020, 01:26 AM | #214 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 34361
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: MI
Vehicle:04.7 STI WRB IG @got2boostit2 |
So black is the void?
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11-03-2020, 10:02 AM | #215 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 338863
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bethlehem,PA
Vehicle:PSM 05 WRX WGN 5MT 95 Caprice 6spd Track Rat |
Wow, not being much of a Porsche guy, didn't realize most or all of their engines were dry sump! Makes sense. And the Gforce sim rig they built is pretty intense. Neat to hear Chevy addressing the oiling for the Vettes right from the factory now. Very cool. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me.
Good to hear you guys had some solid racing despite oil temp woes! |
11-03-2020, 10:03 AM | #216 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 2634
Join Date: Oct 2000
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:1988 5000 CS Quattro Tornado Red |
Sgt. Gator, glad to see the steering changes worked out! I am noodling on what to do with my '05 STI over the winter, but I haven't decided yet. I like the approach you took, but I was also looking at the PRS racks as they fit into the stock subframe and that shaves a bunch of cost out of the equation.
What are you running for suspension, it looks like KWv3s? I'm overdue on a refresh for my car; been leaning towards the MCS singles or doubles, which should be perfect for my use (time trails, minimal street use). Thanks! |
11-03-2020, 03:13 PM | #217 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
Not sure what you are asking?
No, that's an old sticker you see in the pics. They are Race Comp Engineering Tarmac 2. Good luck with your build! |
11-04-2020, 12:21 PM | #218 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 34361
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: MI
Vehicle:04.7 STI WRB IG @got2boostit2 |
Hahaha, neither am I was trying to understand the symbol/gauge in the video of the Porsche motor where it was displaying black.
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11-05-2020, 02:19 AM | #219 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
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11-28-2020, 02:53 PM | #220 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
This is going on the STI next week, our new design. The third stage is narrower, the AN hose is smaller diameter and has a built in ORB fitting to make it as compact as possible. The third stage will go to a Y fitting, then one hose to each head cam cover. We've proven this works on the 818R.
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11-29-2020, 12:37 PM | #221 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 306719
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Troy ,Michigan
Vehicle:2003 Sti Wagon @jn_garage |
What is the average price for one of those dry sump kits ?
5-8k range ? |
11-30-2020, 11:14 AM | #222 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
One more quick note on the pump, the pressure exit port to the DS Tank is on the side of mine. The standard pump has the exit on the bottom which makes it difficult since we mount them in the former A/C spot on top of the engine. The side discharge works better.
Another mod from the standard is kit is John sent us a Fenner Trantorque keyless bushing to secure the pulley to the pump shaft. In the original kit the pulley is secured to the shaft with set screws. The Trantorque is better. Another 818 builder is adding the third stage to his Aviaid pump but instead of running a Y to the heads he's going straight to the third scavenge port on the pan. Both the ARE and Aviaid pans have 3 ports on the pan. I'm looking forward to his track data report on if that works. Quote:
The quality and cost of the -AN hoses can be a big variable. The scavenge lines must be very high quality so they don't collapse under vacuum. But if you order a pump you have to tell John you want the side discharge. Or send him the above pic and tell him you want the same as Gator. When/If you are ready to do this I'll be happy to go over your plan before you spend any $$. Datalogging your crankcase pressures (Vacuum & Positive) is a very good idea too. With three stages it's possible to pull too much vacuum, so a Peterson vacuum regulator is a good idea. But without a crankcase pressure sensor or at least a crankcase vacuum/pressure gauge you won't know if it's set right. And logging your crankcase pressures has lots of other benefits too. FlatIrons has a video on using crankcase pressures during dyno tuning. Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 11-30-2020 at 11:51 AM. |
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11-30-2020, 07:42 PM | #223 |
Scooby Specialist
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That is about what I have seen good to know
I am going to likely give the iag pan and baffle a run but its still street tires on a mostly street car. I was curious because I have never really seen anyone else in the subaru world running that pump |
11-30-2020, 07:54 PM | #224 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
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Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
Quote:
https://elementtuning.com/competition-engines/ Scroll down to "Element Tuning Dry Sump Oiling System $2499+" |
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12-22-2020, 05:50 PM | #225 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 374688
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Bend Oregon
Vehicle:2005 STI WRB |
New DS pump installed, lines to cam covers connected, and one of our new Colonel Red Racing oem 10mm pumps installed too. More on the oil pump as soon as I get my Colonel Red Racing vendor account reactivated.
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