Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-01-2020, 08:26 AM   #2476
Scargod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 260314
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: S central CT, New England
Vehicle:
2007 STI
silver gray metallic

Default

I agree with stevieturbo.
Going by the area of the fitting's ID, two -6 feed lines would have 15.5% more area than a -8. -6 would make for a little cleaner looking system and more hose flexibility.
I make 470 on gas and still run my stock fuel feed line and an internal 450. Under the hood it's all SS braid covered -6.
The only thing I've done is eliminate the internal restriction created by the crimped rounding of both ends of the fuel feed line. In the manufacturing process they round by squeezing down the end, so the fitting slips on easily. This takes away a considerable amount of the tube's available internal cross-sectional area.
Look for restrictions in your custom systems. Not all supposed AN fittings are made the same and to the official AN specifications on the ID's. Any bend slows down the fuel. There are online calculators for figuring pressure loss if you want to know.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Scargod is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 11-01-2020, 09:16 AM   #2477
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

that's a relief, saves me a trouble and money as current setup under the hood is PTFE 6AN in/out, mating to stock fuel lines

as for bends, understand and agree, but I find it not as critical as for example with the oiling system
I do have 180* fittings feeding the rails, but that's the cleanest way to route them in my specific application
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 09:37 AM   #2478
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I agree with stevieturbo.
Going by the area of the fitting's ID, two -6 feed lines would have 15.5% more area than a -8. -6 would make for a little cleaner looking system and more hose flexibility.
I make 470 on gas and still run my stock fuel feed line and an internal 450. Under the hood it's all SS braid covered -6.
The only thing I've done is eliminate the internal restriction created by the crimped rounding of both ends of the fuel feed line. In the manufacturing process they round by squeezing down the end, so the fitting slips on easily. This takes away a considerable amount of the tube's available internal cross-sectional area.
Look for restrictions in your custom systems. Not all supposed AN fittings are made the same and to the official AN specifications on the ID's. Any bend slows down the fuel. There are online calculators for figuring pressure loss if you want to know.
Strangely the flow/area/hose size came up recently over on LS1Tech....and I found this calculator. Which really seems at odds with simply using area.
Although the reason I searched was someone had told me before, a single large diameter will flow more than two smaller of the same area. Although the numbers on this calculator seem vastly different

https://www.copely.com/tools/flow-rate-calculator/

Either way, a friend has run 8's with a single -6 to each set of rails from a -8 line and Y piece ( feeding a pair on injectors on each cylinder, the old Forsa setup )


And even for the hose sizes, the actual fittings often get smaller again to fit inside the pipe, and cheaper makes can be pretty bad in this respect.

But even a single -6 line up the car will easily support 7, 800hp on normal fuel.
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 09:38 AM   #2479
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
that's a relief, saves me a trouble and money as current setup under the hood is PTFE 6AN in/out, mating to stock fuel lines

as for bends, understand and agree, but I find it not as critical as for example with the oiling system
I do have 180* fittings feeding the rails, but that's the cleanest way to route them in my specific application

When you consider the oil galleries in any engine block...it's a wonder any oil gets anywhere ! lol
They're all square 90's, no chamfering etc.
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 08:34 AM   #2480
Barge
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 62941
Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: @brgperformance
Vehicle:
2004 #LesboRacer
#TunedbyBarge

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
I also tried the jaguar controller and at 14% duty it maxed at about 22 amps with voltage maxed out at 10.7. To turn it off you just drop below 14% or gradually taper down to 76%. This was with a 280-300hz input signal. The temperature felt about the same as the volvo fan controller, but just used my hand and no actual thermometer. I'm not sure why it wouldn't go over 10.7v, unless it's designed to limit current output, or it could be something I'm doing wrong with the pwm controller.
Just an FYI the Jag controller wants a ground switched signal at 100Hz from 0-50% DC. Anything over 50 and it shuts off or goes into some fault state. It does have some low limit as well that it looks like you found.

I'm trying to remember if I actually checked voltage output. I feel like I did but now I can't remember 100%. I also ran mine with a voltage booster so I was feeding it 18V. It flowed more with the booster for sure.

I've now switched over to a fuel lab brushless pump/controller with a surge tank setup.
Barge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 08:38 AM   #2481
Barge
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 62941
Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: @brgperformance
Vehicle:
2004 #LesboRacer
#TunedbyBarge

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Decided to go with the jag controller

what is the max amp current they can handle?
wondering if I can use it to drive my Spal fans
In the Jag I believe they're fused at 30A. Most people seem to think they should be good for at least that.

I guess all the internal components are rated well above that (someone tore one apart). So it probably comes down to heat at some point.

I'm using a corvette/mercedes fan controller on my car. Rated for pretty big current and well... it's designed for fans.
Fairly easy to find and I can help with pins and junk if you go that route.
Barge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2020, 08:43 AM   #2482
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barge View Post
In the Jag I believe they're fused at 30A. Most people seem to think they should be good for at least that.

I guess all the internal components are rated well above that (someone tore one apart). So it probably comes down to heat at some point.

I'm using a corvette/mercedes fan controller on my car. Rated for pretty big current and well... it's designed for fans.
Fairly easy to find and I can help with pins and junk if you go that route.
I went with the Mercedes W220 fan controller module, I hope it will be able to control both Spal fans
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2020, 09:01 AM   #2483
Barge
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 62941
Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: @brgperformance
Vehicle:
2004 #LesboRacer
#TunedbyBarge

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I went with the Mercedes W220 fan controller module, I hope it will be able to control both Spal fans
That looks to be the same one I'm using.

I'm not sure what spal fans you're using but I think you've got a pretty good shot.

With the PWM ramp-up you minimize the inrush and I think they're good for 50-70A. The power pins for it are massive (and like $6 a pin).

You can run it without the PWM function as well and it's will run 100%. If I recall correctly that's the difference between the MB and the vette controller. The MB has a backup 12v high switched signal
Barge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2021, 10:07 AM   #2484
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

refactoring few things around my fuel system routing, must the check valve be installed right after the pump, or it can be placed after filter / before rails?
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2021, 12:34 PM   #2485
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

Depends what purpose you wish the check valve to have.

Or you could run none at all.

The closer it is to the pump, any perceived lag time in building pressure from the pump turning on would be less.
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 04:37 AM   #2486
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

Those of you who converted to bigger feed lines, how did you route it? I need to lay AN8/6

in the GC, I am limited by the tight fit, so I am seeing these two options:


Option A, use these two locations for the bulkhead fittings to go through firewall



there are no other spots for the bulkheads to go through, HVAC box, clutch MC in the way

Option B, run through stock location, bend towards the firewall, run to the dogbone and create L-shaped bracket where I would install the 90* bulkhead connectors (this way if it sprays, it does so towards the front of the engine, and not the turbo)

Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 01:13 PM   #2487
Scargod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 260314
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: S central CT, New England
Vehicle:
2007 STI
silver gray metallic

Default

[quote=Hyper;46525655]Those of you who converted to bigger feed lines, how did you route it? I need to lay AN8/6 in the GC, I am limited by the tight fit... /QUOTE]

Will they be hose or metal tubing? I don't know if there is any consensus about whether it is safer to run fuel lines inside a race car or outside. Car manufacturers have done both.
Why not run metal outside the cockpit?
Scargod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 02:19 PM   #2488
remski
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 151895
Join Date: Jun 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Those of you who converted to bigger feed lines, how did you route it? I need to lay AN8/6

in the GC, I am limited by the tight fit, so I am seeing these two options:


Option A, use these two locations for the bulkhead fittings to go through firewall



there are no other spots for the bulkheads to go through, HVAC box, clutch MC in the way

Option B, run through stock location, bend towards the firewall, run to the dogbone and create L-shaped bracket where I would install the 90* bulkhead connectors (this way if it sprays, it does so towards the front of the engine, and not the turbo)

Run your lines after you put the engine and all its accessories in.
remski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 05:06 PM   #2489
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Will they be hose or metal tubing? I don't know if there is any consensus about whether it is safer to run fuel lines inside a race car or outside. Car manufacturers have done both.
Why not run metal outside the cockpit?
metal
I want to mimic OEM and lay them inside
trunk area I am still undecided whether to follow stock route or not, first need to solve the front


I need to mock/cut/weld everything before I paint the car, I consider all the stuff that is in the engine bay, and put it in for mock ups
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 06:30 PM   #2490
Scuby04STi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 328635
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland*
Vehicle:
2004 STi GTX3076R
Rally Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
metal
I want to mimic OEM and lay them inside
trunk area I am still undecided whether to follow stock route or not, first need to solve the front


I need to mock/cut/weld everything before I paint the car, I consider all the stuff that is in the engine bay, and put it in for mock ups
Biased on this info I would just pop them straight through with those bulkhead fittings. The bending and fitting to get them to slide into the OEM firewall pass through will be a PITA and will be less "clean looking" in the end.
Scuby04STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 01:04 PM   #2491
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Vehicle:
96 3MI Racing
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

I personally prefer outside of the cab just for the added safety in a race car.

If going hardline internally, are you still planning to run them along the door sill, then jog across the firewall, behind the pedal box, and then come out there near the dog bone mount?
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 02:04 PM   #2492
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

Outside is fine as long as there is no risk of impact from anything outside.

If inside, either hardline or teflon. Although OEM are down the sill, routing towards the middle of the car takes them further away from anything that might eve get impacted in a severe crash.

Just drill a couple of new holes and do bulkhead fittings to take them to the engine compartment
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 03:18 PM   #2493
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

all my fuel lines are either hardlines or teflon

because this is a street car (mostly) it will have full interior, carpet, etc, so I am thinking of running them like OEM along the door sill

running them along the tunnel creates two challenges - extra heat from the transmission (like there isn't too much heat in the fuel already ) and two hard 90* bends from the tunnel across the underseat section
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 03:23 PM   #2494
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

Trying to route even -6 hoses along the sill will be difficult for anything other than hardline. Up the side of the tunnel is much easier, or along the floor.

Well...difficult if they're trying to remain discrete, with interior bits etc covering them If that's not an issue, anywhere goes really.
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 04:01 PM   #2495
Scuby04STi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 328635
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland*
Vehicle:
2004 STi GTX3076R
Rally Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
all my fuel lines are either hardlines or teflon

because this is a street car (mostly) it will have full interior, carpet, etc, so I am thinking of running them like OEM along the door sill

running them along the tunnel creates two challenges - extra heat from the transmission (like there isn't too much heat in the fuel already ) and two hard 90* bends from the tunnel across the underseat section
I ran a couple -6 lines down the tunnel from my trunk for my remote PS pump, car is full interior and no one can tell they are there. Just took some time getting the pathway perfect.

Heat on the inside of the car from the trans in a non factor on something like this.
Scuby04STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 02:57 AM   #2496
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuby04STi View Post
I ran a couple -6 lines down the tunnel from my trunk for my remote PS pump, car is full interior and no one can tell they are there. Just took some time getting the pathway perfect.

Heat on the inside of the car from the trans in a non factor on something like this.
do you happen to have any pictures of the install? especially how you get around this area




another challenge I didn't think of, is how to stop the bulkheads from rotating when you are working on them from the other side
might not be such a good idea afterall
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 12:40 PM   #2497
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
do you happen to have any pictures of the install? especially how you get around this area




another challenge I didn't think of, is how to stop the bulkheads from rotating when you are working on them from the other side
might not be such a good idea afterall
You tighten them ? lol

Or weld a couple of fittings to a plate to form the bulkhead fittings as a pair, flow/return
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 01:09 PM   #2498
Scuby04STi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 328635
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland*
Vehicle:
2004 STi GTX3076R
Rally Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
do you happen to have any pictures of the install? especially how you get around this area




another challenge I didn't think of, is how to stop the bulkheads from rotating when you are working on them from the other side
might not be such a good idea afterall
No pictures, I basically stopped taking them with how busy I have been.

I just ran it near the passengers rear corner out of the trunk (best clearance) then over to the middle of the rear seat and down the center towards the passenger side at the bottom edge of the tunnel all the way to the front. For the bulkheads just put a little tape on a long wrench and let it bottom out on something with a small piece of wood in-between. then tighten it from in the bay. I work on boats and rarely can reach both sides of the bulkheads. You want the wood so you can "knock it out" rather than spin the fitting to release the wrench.
Scuby04STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2021, 02:35 PM   #2499
Hyper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15822
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: TOPOHTO
Vehicle:
1999 WRB GM6
2.34 LR destroker

Default

I decided to stick with bulkheads



this gives me 3 possible routing inside the cabin, given I can go either left or right from the bulkhead, not down (HVAC in the way)
they all go to the same location where my surge tank with pump is



opinions?

Last edited by Hyper; 03-15-2021 at 02:41 PM.
Hyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2021, 02:56 PM   #2500
stevieturbo
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20366
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Norn Iron
Default

In an uncaged car, I would want to keep any lines as far away from any external impact areas as possible. If caged, they could be kept within the cage area.

Obviously inside the cabin use either hardline or teflon only.
stevieturbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need APS fuel system and tumbler deletes to use APS fuel rails? GoRacerXGo Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 1 06-17-2005 02:07 AM
Difference between fuel SYSTEM cleaner and fuel INJECTOR cleaner? burnout555 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 3 12-17-2003 11:52 AM
Maximum HP on stock RS fuel system with walbro fuel pump Chav Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 11 06-17-2002 03:42 PM
fuel system managment system jeffsnyder Normally Aspirated Powertrain 2 09-23-2001 01:13 PM
Fuel Injectors / Fuel system JC SPORTS Technical Forum Archive 75 07-14-2000 08:51 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.