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Old 08-06-2020, 10:44 AM   #76
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I work for an automotive OEM, along side product planning, manufacturing and engineering departments to define project scope. I can say what Pre describes below is probably VERY close to the truth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
The delay is the pandemic, period. Why the F would Subaru move forward with bringing in the STi right now when so many people are out of work? Do you understand unemployment or economics? Once the US government, and the US is Subaru’s largest market, stops printing money to keep things afloat, the economy is going to bomb out. So you expect Booby to say meh we don’t care, we are going to spend money building this car so it can’t sit and people can’t afford it? High end cars, 50k, 100k, etc, will solider on because the high end market of homes, cars, is relatively consistent. The working man/woman cars, they take the big hits hence the delay.

I think Subaru learned during the housing collapse in 2008 when the economy tanked and they had to discount STi’s thousands of dollars (I bought one in 2008) to even move them. That means Subaru and their dealer network took losses to move units. It has little to do with being a hatch and mostly due to the economy. I think they learned their lesson and are hitting pause for this reason alone. They, like the entire damn world, are waiting to see what happens with Rona and are being conservative as they should.
You have to understand that if the plan really was a Spring 2021 launch, then a TON of work on the car has already been completed. We would be less than 12 months out from SOP (start of production) and the plant in Gunma would be starting to work on EV, QV and VV mules (engineering validation, quality validation, volume validation). They will be dialing in all the calibrations for the engine, suspension, DSC, etc.

This sort of thing can't pivot on a dime, even for a manufacturer as small as Subaru. Remember, in the grand scheme of things, Subaru is a really small company. They simply don't have the internal resources to reinvent the wheel, and since the Impreza/WRX/STI are not shared with another company (ala BRZ and Supra) the burden of funding rests solely on Subaru. The fact that a global pandemic has hit and taken up roost in Subaru's single largest market means they'll let the current model year run 6+ months longer than they would have to delay the new product launch until a more favorable economic market.

You won't like to hear it, but based on the size of the company and the technology jump between the last several generations of Subaru products, the next STI will probably be a mis-mashed evolution of their existing technologies: Expect a familiar suspension layout. Expect the 6-Speed to soldier on. Expect the FA24T to be used with, maybe, a mild hybrid in the mix between engine and trans for torque-fill. DO NOT expect a two-door derivative of the STI.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:07 PM   #77
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How could they let the current model run longer if they're a small rigid company that needs to plan out far in advance? Where are the parts coming from for the old car if the new car parts have already been in production for the Levorg and our WRX? Makes no sense to delay. Selling in smaller batches makes sense, keeping the old car going does not.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:16 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
How could they let the current model run longer if they're a small rigid company that needs to plan out far in advance? Where are the parts coming from for the old car if the new car parts have already been in production for the Levorg and our WRX? Makes no sense to delay. Selling in smaller batches makes sense, keeping the old car going does not.
At least in the U.S. manufacturers are required to stock service and repair parts for 7 years after production ends, so when negotiating with suppliers there is some percentage of parts that will never see the production line and will be sold to dealers. Conceivably they could redirect this production back to the plants and continue production indefinitely, especially if they negotiate another year's worth of product from their suppliers to keep the old model lines running longer.

I'm not saying this is what Subaru has chosen to do, but my company also recently pushed back the launch of a new product for pandemic reasons. Our current models will just ride the wave for another year or so.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:37 PM   #79
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Another consideration is the platform change. I'd imagine the switch to the new platform kept this on track. And the Levorg launch hasn't changed from 8/20. Full steam ahead.
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Old 08-06-2020, 01:08 PM   #80
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*This may all be unrelated, and this post is 100% speculation.*

From a marketing perspective, WRC Japan is currently scheduled to take place in November. And Toyoda has publicly stated that he wants Subaru to return to WRC. Maybe wishful thinking, and perhaps Covid changes things, BUT that would've been a good time to show off a new rally inspired/heritaged car. And I still wouldn't be surprised if we see something around that time. Also note that beginning in 2022 WRC starts a new hybrid era, which seems like something Subaru would be interested in.
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Old 08-06-2020, 01:55 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
I work for an automotive OEM, along side product planning, manufacturing and engineering departments to define project scope. I can say what Pre describes below is probably VERY close to the truth...



You have to understand that if the plan really was a Spring 2021 launch, then a TON of work on the car has already been completed. We would be less than 12 months out from SOP (start of production) and the plant in Gunma would be starting to work on EV, QV and VV mules (engineering validation, quality validation, volume validation). They will be dialing in all the calibrations for the engine, suspension, DSC, etc.

This sort of thing can't pivot on a dime, even for a manufacturer as small as Subaru. Remember, in the grand scheme of things, Subaru is a really small company. They simply don't have the internal resources to reinvent the wheel, and since the Impreza/WRX/STI are not shared with another company (ala BRZ and Supra) the burden of funding rests solely on Subaru. The fact that a global pandemic has hit and taken up roost in Subaru's single largest market means they'll let the current model year run 6+ months longer than they would have to delay the new product launch until a more favorable economic market.

You won't like to hear it, but based on the size of the company and the technology jump between the last several generations of Subaru products, the next STI will probably be a mis-mashed evolution of their existing technologies: Expect a familiar suspension layout. Expect the 6-Speed to soldier on. Expect the FA24T to be used with, maybe, a mild hybrid in the mix between engine and trans for torque-fill. DO NOT expect a two-door derivative of the STI.
/thread

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I trust this guy more due to the fact that he has real-world experience and is coming to reasonable conclusions based on logic, rather than clinging on to some falsely placed hope that they're secretly working on some kind of crazy hybrid-electric performance powerplant putting out 500HP and are planning to skyrocket to the top of the performance car totem pole when everyone else least expects it.
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:29 PM   #82
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.. nearly fell asleep reading this thread.
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oichan View Post
.. nearly fell asleep reading this thread.

Check OP's join date, then look at your calendar.
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:51 PM   #84
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Do people besides derphawk actually think the next gen sti will have any sort of hybrid tech?

That seems incredibly unlikely. I’m expecting the 2.4DIT in a slightly altered version of the current model Impreza with the current gen sti transmission and AWD system.

The current STI is practically a modern engine away from being pretty good, as-is.
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:58 PM   #85
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More importantly, and likely boring to smug someones with 15 new cars in their bunker, did Subaru OF JAPAN (not SOA because WGAF about SOA) have a replacement engine for their STI? EJ20 and the STI has been out of production for JDM all year. The replacement is either done and in the bag or there is no more STI.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:46 AM   #86
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Subaru should just step up the STI to another level and make it limited like a S209. It would just be limited to 1 or 2 years. Make the WRX the flagship performance models and add Tuned by STI trims.

This way, there is more development time to make the STI truly excellent. Currently, a new STI is released every year with minor updates, because there is not enough development time. It will be very expensive and out of reach for most, but It's sometime to admire, like the 22B, all the S models, RA-R.... Then the technology can trickle down to the WRX.

Last edited by 4wdwrx; 08-07-2020 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:09 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Check OP's join date, then look at your calendar.
Yeah, I did think the original post sounded quite juvenile..
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:04 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Substantially slower? It gained all of 200lbs between 2004 and 2020 (along with better chassis rigidity) and kept the same motor.
Yes. Substantially slower.

Almost every single timed test of the 2018 updated STI was baffled about why it was dramatically slower than the previous timed test of the 2015.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...d-test-review/
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 11.7 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 23.1 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.4 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 11.0 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 7.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.3 sec @ 105 mph


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...i-test-review/
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 26.1 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 7.0 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 12.3 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 9.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.8 sec @ 102 mp

When testing the previous STI, we experienced wheel slippage during hard launches, but that wasn't the case with this car. It seemed to be somewhat down on power to a degree that forced us to attempt our acceleration tests with three different drivers. Even with the car set to Sport Sharp mode, we could not break the five-second mark to 60 mph, finally accepting 5.3 seconds as the best it could do. The STI we tested nearly three years ago, which wore Dunlop Sport Maxx tires and weighed about 50 pounds less than this 3451-pound example, ran from zero to 60 mph in 4.8 seconds with a redline clutch drop. With less horsepower and a smaller price tag, our long-term 2015 WRX manual hit 60 mph in 5.0 seconds flat, and the 2018 WRX with a manual needed 5.5. We're calling this one an anomaly.

Unfortunately, it wasn't an anomaly since there are numerous examples of the 2018 being substantially slower than the 2015. In fact, the only example I've seen of the 2018 NOT being substantially slower is a non-timed Subaru of Canada PR video.

Need more examples?
https://www.motorweek.org/reviews/ro...ubaru_wrx_sti/
0-60 mph: 4.7 seconds

1/4 mile: 13.2 seconds @ 104 mph

https://www.motorweek.org/reviews/ro...rx-sti-type-ra
0-60 mph: 5.4 seconds

1/4 mile: 13.9 seconds @ 101 mph

Even with less weight and a bit more power, it took us 5.4-seconds to hit 60. While plenty quick, it was actually a half second slower than we got in an STI back in 2015.

Likewise, the ¼-mile was slower; 13.9-seconds at 101 miles-per-hour.

Last edited by JP Chestnut; 08-07-2020 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:07 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
The replacement is either done and in the bag or there is no more STI.
Honestly, I could see it go either way. As others have mentioned, Subaru has dropped international rallying from it's portfolio. The WRX and later the STI were purpose built with that in mind. SoA has been steadily marching to the beat of CUVs/crossovers/SUVs and seem quite content to continue down that path.

While I would be deeply disappointed if the STI got the axe, I can imagine that scenario pretty clearly.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:41 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
Honestly, I could see it go either way. As others have mentioned, Subaru has dropped international rallying from it's portfolio. The WRX and later the STI were purpose built with that in mind. SoA has been steadily marching to the beat of CUVs/crossovers/SUVs and seem quite content to continue down that path.

While I would be deeply disappointed if the STI got the axe, I can imagine that scenario pretty clearly.
I don't think for a second it's getting the axe. My point is the replacement has been in the works and on a schedule using the Levorg as the starting point for release and ending with the STI. They haven't bumped the launch back for the Levorg so it's looking to be staying course.

The Super GT300 BRZ is still using the EJ20 for competition ( there's a race starting soon). It's speculation that 2020 is the final year for the EJ20 in that platform and Subaru will make the switch to the next generation of motorsport engines being the EJ20 JDM STI stopped production at the end of last year. IF they switch to a new engine and run it next season to collect data and get out production bugs, it will fit within that timeline posted in the FA24 thread. The WRX will get a version of an engine we already get, but the STI will likely get whatever the JDM STI will get. Again, speculation, but I could see this happening with the delay in launch past the WRX. But I do think we will see a next gen all new all different STI, me hoping the engine is a race ready piece.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:46 PM   #91
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At least in USA you have both WRX and STI. In Europe the WRX was dropped many years ago and the STI is no longer available in most countries already.
We don't even get manual versions of any model, everything CVT .

I'm sure there will be a WRX in 2022 and an STI version might come a year later. But I don't expect it to be a revolution or a MB A-class AMG fighter.
Subaru has become a boring 00's Toyota.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:54 PM   #92
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Except Toyota is helping drive Subaru's development of such cars.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:54 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_C_O View Post
At least in USA you have both WRX and STI. In Europe the WRX was dropped many years ago and the STI is no longer available in most countries already.
We don't even get manual versions of any model, everything CVT .

I'm sure there will be a WRX in 2022 and an STI version might come a year later. But I don't expect it to be a revolution or a MB A-class AMG fighter.
Subaru has become a boring 00's Toyota.

Yup but you have infinitely more choices there than you do here, it's not even comparable. I'd happily trade DM's with you. You can have the US selection of automobiles, and I will take yours, forever.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:16 PM   #94
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Well, if we’re doing baseless speculation....



2022 for a re-released 22-B
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:20 PM   #95
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That what we do here cuz paranoid Subaru.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:59 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
I think COVID is the simplest and most likely answer for the delay. No need to rush a new model into a down market or tie up factory space retooling when you have had unscheduled shutdowns and can't get enough product out the door......


The now shown timeline is what I was hearing last year.....before COVID.

Now, will the pandemic have an affect from here till those releases? Dunno.
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Old 08-07-2020, 04:07 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
Well, if we’re doing baseless speculation....



2022 for a re-released 22-B

If that means a coupe, then I like you man, you can come over and F my sister
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Old 08-07-2020, 04:45 PM   #98
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this thread has become hillarious. Now there is going to be NO new STI LMAO!!!!
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Old 08-07-2020, 04:54 PM   #99
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SOJ won't have sold a new STI for 3 years by time the next gen is released. HA HA.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:31 PM   #100
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at the end of the day, nothing has really changed, with the time frame, so there is no need to get panties all in a bunch here. Regardeless of the arrival of the pandemic, some of you have VERY limited memory, "We", were "debating"(some were mocking), over a year ago that the next Gen STI with all new drivetrain would be 2021 or 2022 at the earliest. So if the new drivetrain/platform STI comes in 2022 nothing has changed from those discussions over a year ago LOL!!!

A common denominator group of EJ haters didnt want to accept that a year ago because they cant stand the EJ, even though it has been a PHENOMENAL success for subaru in the STI, the car has NEVER had a problem selling, with the exception of the hatch version that only sold 1/3 of the units of the sedan version during the years they were both available at the same time.

2021 will continue the success of the EJ257 with trickle down parts from the S209 and 340-350 horsepower as the curtain call for that drivetrain. And most likely a special edition of 400 horsepower. 2022 will bring the new sedan with design cues from the Viziv concept sedan, drivetrain more likely than not the FA2.4 with 420 ish horsepower stock(again forbes stated that subaru benchmarked the AMG 2.0) to be able to claim the highest horsepower 4 cylinder turbo in production, so that at least in specifications, it will be on top again in its price range and as a marketing pedestal to attract buyers.

Now here is where it will get interesting. The FA design will already be getting close to a decade oldin the U.S and by 2025 there is going to be a massive switch to electric power supplementation. The reality is, that the longevity of the EJ is never going to be repeated in the subaru lineup, let alone in the STI with a new engine, as at this point the new engine will be overlapping the expolding electric power implementation across the industry WORLDWIDE! I'd expect the the new drivetrain to only last 2-3 years before its changed to accomodate electric power. But 2-3 years of a 420+ horsepower boxer turbo 4 in a new STI will be fun while it lasts. I think electric power added to a package like that in 2024/2025 will EASILY push it close to if not over 500 horsepower. Its exciting to look forward to it! Or should I say....ELECTRIFYING!!! LOL
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