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Old 04-29-2003, 12:29 AM   #26
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Thanks for clearing that up Paul, I didnt know that our front bar was bigger then Japans. If thats what is causing the understeer then I have no problem changing that out since I will still be legal for stock competition in scca autox.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by PunksWRX
Just got the magazine today. It's the June issue.

As far as the understeer issue they say "On pavement , the Subaru's bum is resolutely planted. Push the STi reasonably hard into a turn, and the front tires squawk. Now, we are not talking Buick-style understeer here. But despite it's power advantage, the STi trailed the livelier-handling Evolution on twisting roads up and down Palomar Mountain in Southern California and on the Streets of Willow road course. And it didn't matter whether we let the car's computer control the center differential, deciding which axle should get power, or we manually adjusted the power split through the console-mounted thumb wheel. The lap times remained essentailly the same. Understeer is a major, nearly unforgivable, faux pas for this type of car. Some of this, we suspect, is due to the torque-sensing limited-slip differential. It allows you to fire out of the corners, but when the power is off, the front end wants to drift to the outside.".

Punk
Ok. Now this sounds like a MUCH more reasonable review than the MT review (in terms of numbers).

The STi has a TINY edge in lap times, but I wonder what C&D means by "the STi trailed the livelier-handling Evolution on ... the Streets of Willow road course" I'm guessing they are talking subjectively?

For me personally, the subjective feel of a car is WAY more important than the numbers, so from a purely journalistic point of view, this comparison tilts the balance in favor of the EVO. Obviously, I won't really know till I drive them both.

This is getting really exciting and I cannot wait.

EDIT: I stand corrected, it is the EVO that got the best lap and since the driver was Rod Millen, I definately trust his ability to push the cars to their limits. I am really glad C&D choose a PRO to do the lap times.

Last edited by 97itr153; 04-29-2003 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:32 AM   #28
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It seems like dccd doesn't so much kill the WRX tendency to understeer as complicate it. That's the only disappointment I see with C&D's numbers for the STI..... the skidpad number is equal and in their slalom equivalent is actually significantly better than the Evos.

I have to say in fairness to Shiv's remarks though....I think Car and Driver's comments about the handling of the STI are very similar to his, and completely vindicate his comments. The fact that the Evo can come out ahead on the track testing, when it is obviously battling a power deficit with the STI says volumes about how fast the car is and can be driven on a track.

Same with braking where the Evo has been consistently a little bit better albeit on wider tires, in every comparison i've seen.

Although the differences on the track and courses were only a fraction of a second, they obviously speak to a handling advantage of the Evo, because if you look at all the acceleration times...it is perfectly clear that the STI is significantly faster throughout the rev range and in every gear (MotorTrend is either being misquoted or on drugs)
The STI is 1/2 a second quicker to 60 1 second faster to 100 and 4 seconds faster to 130, faster in every top-gear measure,....street start of almost 1 sec. better than the Evo, and so on. All while being more street (as opposed to track) friendly.

Car and Driver's times are typical for the Evo, so I only hope they are equally representative for the STI, and I have a feeling they will be.

Last edited by strangerq; 04-29-2003 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:33 AM   #29
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What do you mean?

The evo had a slight edge in lap times because they could get it to handle better, the sti made up time powering out of turns and straights.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:43 AM   #30
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To clarify:
C&D road course, Rod Millen driving

Evo 1:04.18
STi 1:04.34

.16 seconds difference

Obviously, some tracks will favor the STi's power and some the Evo's handling edge. With a difference that small, alignment settings and driver skill (and style) will make the difference on a track more than anything.

TRS
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:45 AM   #31
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The STi would make up it's time in the straights - if there were any of significance. A 1.1 mile long track isn't going to have much of a straight in it, unless it's only got two turns. I've never driven Streets of Willow, but if it's anything like Tsukuba Circuit (which is actually a bit longer), then the Evo would make up for it's power deficit with cornering speeds.

The DCCD-A does help for power distribution, but as I've noted before, most of the changes came from different suspension geometry and tuning, not only the DCCD-A system. And Subaru has changed it around a tad from the cars I've driven. Little stuff that could add up to .5 of a second around a track.

Now, this is the point where I add in "but when you get down to it, there's no way the better driver is going to lose if he's in either of these cars. Their times are so close that it will easily swing either way".

BTW - those lap times are indicative of what I've been saying all along - despite the subjective "evo must be faster because it feels faster" comments, the cars are actually incredibly close in times.

Cheers,

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Old 04-29-2003, 12:46 AM   #32
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just to note, yes streets of willow is rather tight, and rod millen is known for driving Evo's.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma

But then, it does sound like they were lifting in the corners. Bad idea - for both cars. They should have, at worst, used some left-foot braking, or at best learned by now that AWD cars corner best with at least minimal throttle while cornering. Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Paul,

Are you implying that with these cars, it is not a good idea to use trail-braking when entering a corner? Are you suggesting a slow-in, fast-out, deep corner entry with most of the braking completed before turning in?

I hope to test drive an EVO in the next month or so and I would like to try out some of the things you suggest. My usual approach in most 2wd cars is to use a good amount of trail-braking to get the car rotated before the apex. However, This type of technique is dangerous in cars like the Lotus 7 replicas. I spun a Birkin (Lotus 7) yesterday at an Autocross Novice school in which I was instructing. It was the first time I had driven a "7" replica and I was a little surprised by the car's behavior during lift-throttle while cornering I wasn't quite as embassased since another Instructor (also a national-level Autocross driver like myself) had spun the same car in the SAME turn earlier in the day. Whew!

Any advice is appreciated.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:51 AM   #34
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Holy *****!!! 4 seconds is a HUGE difference in acceleration to 130 mph. Otherwise this seems to be a close competition... only time will tell.
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:52 AM   #35
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Paul recommended at least left foot braking which is in essecnce trail braking while using some throttle.

BTW dont try left foot brakein for the first time on your test drive for you will introduce you and your salesmans forheads to the windshield.

Last edited by afpdl; 04-29-2003 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:12 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma

BTW - those lap times are indicative of what I've been saying all along - despite the subjective "evo must be faster because it feels faster" comments, the cars are actually incredibly close in times.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
Agreed on this point, i've always thought that a lot of what people react to with the Evo is the quick steering rack, which makes everything else feel slow by comparison. Don't get me wrong, i'm a very alert driver and would love to play with the quicker rack of the Evo but I also recognise that that won't generally, actually make the car any faster, and that the STI's rack ratio is typical of most sports cars, and it's turning circle (irrelevant for racing i know) is actually superior to the Evos.
Still, the STI at this point needs at least one example of a faster track-time to alter the perception that the EVo is simply a fundamentally better track car. Let the reviews roll in.
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:13 AM   #37
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All in all, while I'm slightly dissapointed the STi didn't win hands down, I must honestly say that I like what I'm seeing, at Least from CD... (MT's got problems...)

For my purposes, the STi remains the choice car (I'll take the nicer interior and more power). But mad respect to the EVO. Its a nice market segment, no matter which you drive.

This just might get me out to at least Test-drive the EVO before buying, but I honestly don't know If I could live with the looks.. I mean, I don't know why, but I just find them far to... childish I suppose.

But you know what, its goes fast, they're going to be good competition, and I look forward to a _friendly_ rivalry with Evo Owners for years to come...

Now all I have to do is graduate and go fulltime with Nextel:-D

-Scott
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:14 AM   #38
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guess went it comes down to it, the best mod for either car is driving school and practice on the track of your preference, that maybe the difference of that 1/2 sec difference.
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:18 AM   #39
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Quote:
Soon2Bgreat wrote

just to note, yes streets of willow is rather tight, and rod millen is known for driving Evo's
Rod is a world class driver with a family speed pedigree to boot, but he has a long history of professional and commercial interest in the EVO. Not that he would report any false data, but that he is much more accustomed to the ride and drive of the Mitsu vs the Suby.

So naturally he would most likely drive the EVO better than the STi. Just validates that the cars are both at the top of the game and personal preference will count most. Performance equality for almost anyone else.

My vote is STi!

Mike M
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:22 AM   #40
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Wow, i think this is amazing. 2 cars couldn't be more evenly matched, incredible.

Couple things that's just really bothering me though and that's the comments about the understeer, and lack of lateral support from the seats for the STI. I was hoping this car would be pretty much void of both. While the seat thing really isn't a big deal at all, the understeer is eating away at my mind
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:25 AM   #41
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Funny motor trend both had the times reversed and thought that the sti had great supportive seats Maybe they had a 350 pounder driving the sti, that could have explained alot.
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:43 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by afpdl
Funny motor trend both had the times reversed and thought that the sti had great supportive seats Maybe they had a 350 pounder driving the sti, that could have explained alot.
Yes, and supposidly the Evo has more aggressive gearing.

If it was any other magazine, you'd know the joker who posted just transposed the remarks for laughs......

However, Motortrend is just wacky enough so that you can't know for sure until someone scans....
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:43 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by gills
While the seat thing really isn't a big deal at all, the understeer is eating away at my mind
Ah, well, I wrote a comment about that a while back. Understeer in this situation is a relative thing - it's in comparison to the other car, and is also going to be a function of the driving style of the person behind the steering wheel.

View understeer as a number. 100 is extreme Oversteer. 0 is extreme Understeer.

Now, a rental Corolla has an rating of 1. A Camaro with two spare tyres on the back is around 95. Now, the Evo may be at 68, and the STi at 66. In comparison to the Corolla, you wouldn't describe the STi or Evo as having any understeer. In comparison to the Camaro, the STi or Evo wouldn't have any oversteer. But in comparison to each other in a back to back test, the STi understeers in comparison to the Evo.

Cheers,

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Old 04-29-2003, 01:47 AM   #44
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gills,

keep in mind that with cars this similar and the fact that this is a comparison article, they have to favor one car over the other to some degree and the most miniscule differences are going to be mentioned. I'm sure that with the numbers this car is posting the understeer is relative to the handling of the evo, which appears to be quite good.

Don't make the mistake of thinking understeer in the sti is going to be anything like a typical front driver.
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Old 04-29-2003, 02:03 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by 97itr153
Are you implying that with these cars, it is not a good idea to use trail-braking when entering a corner? Are you suggesting a slow-in, fast-out, deep corner entry with most of the braking completed before turning in?
Good question. I don't think I explained my view very well. You definitely can use trail-braking upon entry - I do a lot with my car's setup - but I wouldn't be using it like the description from that magazine. I'll tap the brakes upon entry while pointing the wheels in the direction I want to go, but I'm then immediately back on the gas. Not heavily on the gas, but enough to keep the weight transfer to the back. (Well, heavily or not depends on the corner, too). To experience understeer off power like they are describing, they would need to be off the gas all the way to apex, which has got to be the slowest way to drive either of these cars. (of course, I'm going on word of mouth on an article I won't see in person for a month, so this may be an incorrect assumption of mine)

Left-foot braking, or in my case, side-of-the-right-foot braking, is quite a useful technique for balancing a AWD or FWD car in corners. But, I must add, it's easy to over-rely on it and use it too much, which will actually be slower than the fastest way through the corner. However, it's safer, and when I'm learning corners (and the car I'm in), I'll use it heavily until I know the corner well as far as entry/apex/exit speeds, then I'll just use it lightly on entry and balance with the throttle the rest of the way. There is no way I'll be off the throttle at any point past entry, though, that's a good way to snap oversteer. And snap oversteer may be an option for some people to rotate the car, but if you are going fast enough and near enough to the traction limits, snap oversteer is rolling the dice way too often. If you find yourself needing to rotate the car that much, then a review of the entry/apex/exit points that you are using for that corner is probably in order.

Quote:
This type of technique is dangerous in cars like the Lotus 7 replicas. I spun a Birkin (Lotus 7) yesterday at an Autocross Novice school in which I was instructing. It was the first time I had driven a "7" replica and I was a little surprised by the car's behavior during lift-throttle while cornering
I think they are similar to the Elises in that you should never, ever move off the throttle much. The Elises spin at track sessions here on an average of every 3 laps. Yes, they are fast, but you've got to reallllly learn their quirks.

Also, do keep in mind that I am not a professional instructor nor professional race driver. I have a fair knowledge of what's going on, I do well on the course, but back to back with professional race drivers, I get my rear-end handed to me. I love racing against them, though, because it always improves my times and skills each and every time, I'm a very competitive person. But it also means that I'm not the ultimate authority on the matter - though I've yet to actually meet an ultimate authority, because every professional racer that I have met has a different style and way of going about things.

Shimizu-san, who is a very good driver of Subaru's and well-placed with them, goes for the chuck it in sideways method. Reallllly sideways. According to another good Subaru driver/tuner, this is the preferred method for STi's - always keep the front wheels in the direction you want to go and simply keep on the gas, it'll eventually pull itself together and go there. To be very honest, I've yet to go as deep and hard as Shimizu and Ross go, and I'm not the type to abuse a car that much, so I'll just nod and pass their information on.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Old 04-29-2003, 02:06 AM   #46
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I know what you guys are saying and i already knew that. I just needed it to be reiterated The difference is so miniscule that it doesn't even matter. My god, look at the difference in lap times!!!! That right there is all driver.
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Old 04-29-2003, 02:16 AM   #47
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hey paul, would you say that the JDM spec STi and US spec STi are similar, now that you've driven both? what would be the small differences between the two?
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Old 04-29-2003, 02:25 AM   #48
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Umm when did paul drive a US sti? And I believe we have a diffent supension then the standard sti as well as more weight.
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Old 04-29-2003, 03:00 AM   #49
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oh yeah, i forgot, he's in japan, my bad. well, he seems to know quite a deal about the Japan spec STi. I was just wondering if he could come up with a comparison with the JDM STi and the US STi. i'm assuming they're pretty close in terms of performance. thanks for the heads up.
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Old 04-29-2003, 05:34 AM   #50
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Paul..

I thought I remember a bit back someone posted the suspesion
spec for the USDM STi (I believe it was Jon)...
If I remember correctly.. it's 19mm front & 19mm rear... which
should've been a very neutral set up???

In comparison... EVO uses 24/22mm.... which explains the
complete lack of body roll that many claims...
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