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Old 03-07-2003, 08:37 AM   #51
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So does this mean the USDM STI will do 250-270lb/ft torque at 2200rpm. If so it that would be awesome.
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Old 03-07-2003, 01:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jewbaru
Since when is a FMIC some super awesome addition to a car? Big deal, it's an intercooler, they look sharp, but it's performance is ALL that matters.

it's an upgrade to a tmic, just like 17" wheels are an upgrade to 16" wheels.... just like brembo's are upgrades to..... you get the picture.

if "performance is ALL that matters", buy a z28....
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Old 03-07-2003, 01:08 PM   #53
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Forgot to mention that the Mitsu dealer said the reps in Atlanta were saying that the evo will only be available this year... hmmm. He said that's another reason to get it as it will be a collectors car. I suggested that they may just be bringing a better version and thus this will be the only year for the current evo.?. He said they were almost definite that it wouldn't be coming back in any form... Yeah maybe if everyone that buys one kills themselves in it and then the families organize a class action and sue Mitsu. Or did they just get cold feet....
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Old 03-07-2003, 01:42 PM   #54
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Evo being a limited production car is bull****. Mitsubishi hasn't been doing that great and it had to finally bring over it's flagship car because of the market it's losing to WRX and the fact that it's not doing so great compared to Accord and Camry. Legacys are selling just as well as Galants are, but Legacys have a obvious advantage over the Galant; being AWD and all.
The USDM Evo we're getting now, I am sure is just to get the taste of the market and so far there has been an increasing demand of the Evo everywhere. Remember the USDM Evo is made in the same plant as the JDM Evo. Well atleast I think the JDM Evo is made in Kurashiki, Japan. All parts are 100% Japanese made. So when time comes, Mitsu can just as easily switch over the JDM parts to be put into the USDM cars i.e. AYC/ACD and the 6 Speed. Because that's all that it's lacking. I pray that I don't see the day that the Evo is made in the USA. MMSA has no clue on how to make good cars. Look at the 1G and 2G Eclipse.
I am sure MMSA will hold off the AYC/ACD till the STi finally arrives and it will see how well the STi sells then bring over the AYC/ACD as perhaps the Ralliart Edition of the Evo. There is a Ralliart edition of the Lancer coming out with a 2.4L MIVEC (Vtec basically). So chances are very likely it will be called the Ralliart edition Evo.
On the other hand, It hasn't been confirmed, but apparently HKS USA dynoed the USDM Evo making about 240 HP at the wheels. Like I said It hasn't been confirmed, however there was a dyno sheet, I just can't find it right now.
I just feel that after the STi 6, the design dept of Subaru took a nose dive down hill. The WRX design never grew on me, and the new STi design still doesn't feel right. Looks like the STi 6's and the beatle's bastard child. I'm sorry, being a Subaru forum and all, I'm bashing subaru. I mean there cars are great and all and I am still considering getting the STi, low chances though.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jewbaru
Since when is a FMIC some super awesome addition to a car? Big deal, it's an intercooler, they look sharp, but it's performance is ALL that matters.
Dude, I'm new to this board, but you really aren't setting a good example.
If I have a FMIC sitting out infront of my car, I do hope you know what an intercooler is there for. And i have a TMIC, and I'm going 60mph, which IC do you think will be cooler?
Hint: Answer has something to do with the front.
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Old 03-07-2003, 02:45 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by InfinityDSM
Evo being a limited production car is bull****. Mitsubishi hasn't been doing that great and it had to finally bring over it's flagship car because of the market it's losing to WRX and the fact that it's not doing so great compared to Accord and Camry.
i remember reading in the current scc that the mitsubishi has stated that there is no limit to how many they will produce, they will build as many as they can sell. so next year when the 0-0-0 deal rolls around, i might be buying a second car :P
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Old 03-07-2003, 02:56 PM   #56
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Subaru is number one for reliability according to consumer reports.

what's mitsu? it's not even mentioned among most reliable.

most DSM fans on here even say mitsus fall apart.

reliablility is a hell of lot higher on my priority list than the "look" of the car.

but that's just me, maybe i'm stupid.
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Old 03-07-2003, 03:39 PM   #57
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I own a DSM. 1995 Eclipse GST. It doesn't fall apart under normal wear and tear, it falls apart when I try to do a 5K RPM launch on the stock clutch, which it will do, but won't like it.
I've owned my DSM for about a year now, it has 120K miles. So far I've changed the clutch and water pump ONLY. No problems at all, no crankwalk, no nothing. The car is not stock, but still it hasn't given my any problems at all. I'm not saying that Mitsu has a great track record, I'm saying USA built Mitsu's don't have a great track record. For example my mom drives a 1998 Mitsubishi Diamante LS. THe car is australian made and we bought the car brand new. She drives it a lot and the only major service it needed was the serpentine belt and that's it. Before my vr-4 and gst, I used to own a 1994 Galant LS. I owned that car for 3 years and it never once gave me any problem. That was an exception to my statement, the car was US built, but it never gave me any problems, it was a auto but I used to use it like a stick, rev dropped from Neutral, used L, 2 and 3 like normal gears, did burn outs in it. It was a fun car, lots of power for a small engine. I do agree Mitsubishi has been having troubles, but it's improving. I mean I'm not complaining about the great and powerful WRX trannies or the fact that cobra's have over heating problems (well it's ford, so it's acceptable) etc etc.
But I do agree, DSMs had to be Mitsu's most unreliable car.
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Old 03-07-2003, 10:35 PM   #58
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240 hp is on dynojet and not dynapack.....big difference.

Sigh, it has 271-280HP. let's just leave it at that. But after chip change it could easily make 350HP+... I just sat in one today. I think the recaros are similar to the USDM Sti version. In my opinion, not that great and limited shoulder support. Can't believe they are recaros. I am beginning to like my own seats... great support. They just don't look good.

Gtr drove the car and said there was no lag.....he's still breaking it in (by driving 300 miles tonight). When it has been broken in. I 'll post some times for all to see.

Cheers

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Old 03-08-2003, 12:48 AM   #59
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InfinityDSM, Thanks for blathering on, but there is absolutely NO WAY to generalize design aspects of a car. To say FMIC is >> than TMIC is flat stupid. Get a crummy core like teh early Starion, or a tiny ass size like teh eclipse, and a good TMIC like the current WRX will beat it hands down, not to mention the much better (read $$) stuff like the STi and aftermarket setups. Frankly with the A/C condenser and radiator there, plus the crash bar, I'd all but put $$ down that the EVO and STi will be damn close in ultimite IC efficency. Don't forget that the TMIC on subarus ISN'T over the motor but over the tranny where it has alot of space to expel air to, and the hood scoop also ducts air across the turbo to help keep it a happy camper and reduce underhood temps. The Turbo is completely heat sheilded away from the IC so thats not an issue.
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Old 03-08-2003, 01:42 AM   #60
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Originally posted by nicktckhoo
"Sigh, it has 271-280HP. let's just leave it at that. But after chip change it could easily make 350HP+... "

Wow! I need to get ahold of your tuner, nicktckhoo- if I manage to get an STi, he should be able to pump out say 500-600 hp with a "chip change". Add a downpipe and I'm good for 900 whp!!
No offense meant- but engine mgmt is only gonna get you so far on a stock motor, even a good one...

Anyway.
STi INGER: that was at Premier in Beaverton?? I just had a call today, and I quizzed them on the "premium" over MSRP- and the salesguy reluctantly confirmed- "$10,000 over" and then mentioned that the owners of the 3 (I didn't hear 8..) they had already sold said "it was worth it".
Really, my only worry was that my local Subie dealer would think.. "Hmmm, if an EVO is worth $38-40,000, then an STi should be worth around $45,000!"
Eek!
Let's hope that's not the case.

Russ Rainforth
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Old 03-08-2003, 10:20 AM   #61
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Up here in Portland, Maine, they've got some great deals on the Evo. $2,500 down along with your signature on a form that states that the price will be $5,000 to $7,000 above MSRP. The salesman told me that because it has inverted struts, you can jump it (just like the picture in the brochure). The local Subaru dealer is offering $500 down with gauranteed MSRP on an STI. That sounds like a better way of doing business.
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Old 03-08-2003, 11:55 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tobey


it's an upgrade to a tmic, just like 17" wheels are an upgrade to 16" wheels.... just like brembo's are upgrades to..... you get the picture.

if "performance is ALL that matters", buy a z28....
Which would you rather have, a TMIC that's 80% efficient, or a FMIC that's 70% efficient?

BTW, you're last statement was retarded. I said ITS performance, referring to the intercooler.

People wonder why I don't post here much anymore.

Last edited by Jewbaru; 03-08-2003 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 03-08-2003, 12:01 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by InfinityDSM
Dude, I'm new to this board, but you really aren't setting a good example.
If I have a FMIC sitting out infront of my car, I do hope you know what an intercooler is there for. And i have a TMIC, and I'm going 60mph, which IC do you think will be cooler?
Hint: Answer has something to do with the front.
I really don't give a rat's ass how you think of me on this forum, or what impression I give off.

Anyway, you really don't know what your talking about. FMICs are popular because of their looks. They're big plus in performance is they don't heat soak as badly as a TMIC can, and there's usually more room to roam, but at speed, both are rather efficient. Some FMICs flow better than some TMICs, and vice versa. The STi TMIC is damn good, hell, it can keep the charge cool enough to produce over 300hp.

What matters is how efficient the IC is, and it's pressure drop accross the core. Just because it's in the front of the car doesn't mean it's going to be better.
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Old 03-08-2003, 02:50 PM   #64
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Traditionally FMICs have more lag than TMIC due to the longer piping needed...
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Old 03-08-2003, 04:43 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by wrrrx
Originally posted by nicktckhoo
"Sigh, it has 271-280HP. let's just leave it at that. But after chip change it could easily make 350HP+... "

Wow! I need to get ahold of your tuner, nicktckhoo- if I manage to get an STi, he should be able to pump out say 500-600 hp with a "chip change". Add a downpipe and I'm good for 900 whp!!
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Old 03-08-2003, 04:47 PM   #66
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so FMIC is mostly about bling?
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Old 03-08-2003, 07:05 PM   #67
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Premier, Town and Country, Dick Hannah...All of them want $10000+MSRP.

Dick Hannah did make me a good deal for the EVO though. They said that I could get the car for MSRP + 15% and then a contingancy written into the purchase that says if I test drive the STi and like it more, I could return the EVO. I didn't have the money for the down payment or else I would of jumped all over it (free EVO for 3 months!!)
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Old 03-08-2003, 10:55 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jewbaru


Which would you rather have, a TMIC that's 80% efficient, or a FMIC that's 70% efficient?

BTW, you're last statement was retarded. I said ITS performance, referring to the intercooler.

People wonder why I don't post here much anymore.
why the attitude? really, with a catty attitude like that, we all thank you for posting less.


Quote:
Originally posted by Jewbaru
Since when is a FMIC some super awesome addition to a car? Big deal, it's an intercooler, they look sharp, but it's performance is ALL that matters.

umm...... again what were you saying with this statement?

sounds like you are saying "why pay for a front mount intercooler, it's just something that looks good"? if that WAS what you were saying, it's the farthest thing from the truth. seems to me aboout 80% of the high hp wrx's are using fmic, i doubt it's to look sharp...... check every tuners website, they are all making fmics, why?

i'm just sick of the typical attitude on this board, where if you aren't spending your money on some big hp improvement, you are wasting your time and effort.... that's where my z28 comment came into play. it seems everyone here thinks these cars we drive are going to be world beaters or something. if you are looking to turn the earth with your hp, you shoulda bought something else.
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Old 03-09-2003, 06:47 AM   #69
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Regarding the Top Mount intercooler...

The top mount IC on the flat-4 engine is a beautiful layout IMO... one that I don't want to change because it is so compact.

Tobey, you just said it yourself... not everyone here is in to making maximum power so for most people they don't need a FMIC.

For an EVO the FM layout works better because there's no room to put it over the engine... for a Subaru the top mount achieves better packaging. These are mass produced vehicles guys, there is still some cost consideration that goes into deciding the layout in the engine room.

I honestly don't see the reason in fighting about whatever it is your fighting about... The IC's are where they are for a variety of reasons... if you want a front mount IC on your Scoob then they're available. IMHO, they're not really needed unless you're trying to make huge power and they definately help when you're on a dyno with a fan blowing at the front of the car! But while on the road FM layout still can cool better (just look at the size of the opening for cooling air!!) the advantage is not as great as it is at low speed.

Like I said before, for me the packaging of a top mount with the flat-4 is pretty cool... it keeps weight off the very front of the car and reduces the amount of piping which keeps weight and cost down, it also keeps damage in the case of a fender bender down to a minimum. If someone wants an FMIC for looks I think thats ghey and they're a poser but that's one dude's opinion.

I think we can all agree that the Talons and Eclipses were not well made... what the EVO's record for reliability in this country is remains to be seen. While the Impreza has some issues, I've heard from a couple places that the EVO's overseas are more prone to breaking down than Imprezas... I have an open mind so I'm not saying that will be the case here, just what I've read.
No need for argument as I'm not stating either is a POS, just what I've heard and we'll have to wait and see what's true and what isn't.

With regard to performance in turns and straight line... on paper the STi should dominate everwhere. What will happen for real? That remains to be seen. I would imagine the better driver would win on a track or auto-x course. I do think it's silly to argue one way or the other when very few people have driven EITHER car.

I do like the suspension tuning on the EVO which is mainly for tarmac better than like an all around tuning though. The suspension is changable though. Many people will swap it out on the EVO as many will swap it out on the STi.

Anyway, the bottom line is it's best to keep an open mind when you haven't driven or ridden in either/both cars.

Have a nice day
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Old 03-10-2003, 10:03 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by StealthWagon
Traditionally FMICs have more lag than TMIC due to the longer piping needed...
Traditionally boxter engines have the turbo father away from the exhaust mainfold which will result slower spool ups and more lag. Going form your logic you need an Inline engine if you don't want lag. This longer piping from the exhaust mainfold will affect lag more than FMIC, TMIC piping. SO please

With my stock twin scroll setup i'd bet i'd still have less lag than your car with the TMIC. The fact is my stock intercooler is good up to 500hp because of the larger front mount. If your planing to go mega hp your have to go front mount. Even the STi wrc car have this setup. So what does that tell you?

We'll see which car is better. As of now my money is on the evo and that's why i bought one. And if i'm very wrong, only then i'll make the switch. I'm not going to comment until i try the STi out and only then my opinion will mean something.
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Old 03-11-2003, 06:29 AM   #71
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Sorry if I missed it already in this thread, but shiv dyno'ed his own EVO8 and received results that were not indicative of a 271 BHP car (they were less). He also said that maybe it was just his car. Just FYI

VV

Quote:
Originally posted by InfinityDSM
Evo being a limited production car is bull****. Mitsubishi hasn't been doing that great and it had to finally bring over it's flagship car because of the market it's losing to WRX and the fact that it's not doing so great compared to Accord and Camry. Legacys are selling just as well as Galants are, but Legacys have a obvious advantage over the Galant; being AWD and all.
The USDM Evo we're getting now, I am sure is just to get the taste of the market and so far there has been an increasing demand of the Evo everywhere. Remember the USDM Evo is made in the same plant as the JDM Evo. Well atleast I think the JDM Evo is made in Kurashiki, Japan. All parts are 100% Japanese made. So when time comes, Mitsu can just as easily switch over the JDM parts to be put into the USDM cars i.e. AYC/ACD and the 6 Speed. Because that's all that it's lacking. I pray that I don't see the day that the Evo is made in the USA. MMSA has no clue on how to make good cars. Look at the 1G and 2G Eclipse.
I am sure MMSA will hold off the AYC/ACD till the STi finally arrives and it will see how well the STi sells then bring over the AYC/ACD as perhaps the Ralliart Edition of the Evo. There is a Ralliart edition of the Lancer coming out with a 2.4L MIVEC (Vtec basically). So chances are very likely it will be called the Ralliart edition Evo.
On the other hand, It hasn't been confirmed, but apparently HKS USA dynoed the USDM Evo making about 240 HP at the wheels. Like I said It hasn't been confirmed, however there was a dyno sheet, I just can't find it right now.
I just feel that after the STi 6, the design dept of Subaru took a nose dive down hill. The WRX design never grew on me, and the new STi design still doesn't feel right. Looks like the STi 6's and the beatle's bastard child. I'm sorry, being a Subaru forum and all, I'm bashing subaru. I mean there cars are great and all and I am still considering getting the STi, low chances though.

Dude, I'm new to this board, but you really aren't setting a good example.
If I have a FMIC sitting out infront of my car, I do hope you know what an intercooler is there for. And i have a TMIC, and I'm going 60mph, which IC do you think will be cooler?
Hint: Answer has something to do with the front.
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Old 03-11-2003, 07:10 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by gtr


Traditionally boxter engines have the turbo father away from the exhaust mainfold which will result slower spool ups and more lag. Going form your logic you need an Inline engine if you don't want lag. This longer piping from the exhaust mainfold will affect lag more than FMIC, TMIC piping. SO please

With my stock twin scroll setup i'd bet i'd still have less lag than your car with the TMIC. The fact is my stock intercooler is good up to 500hp because of the larger front mount. If your planing to go mega hp your have to go front mount. Even the STi wrc car have this setup. So what does that tell you?

We'll see which car is better. As of now my money is on the evo and that's why i bought one. And if i'm very wrong, only then i'll make the switch. I'm not going to comment until i try the STi out and only then my opinion will mean something.
I have a feeling your wrong here. I think the EVO may be better in a few areas from what I've read, but overall the STI will be better. But enjoy the EVO for now, just watch out for those telephone poles.
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Old 03-11-2003, 08:39 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by VetteVert
Sorry if I missed it already in this thread, but shiv dyno'ed his own EVO8 and received results that were not indicative of a 271 BHP car (they were less). He also said that maybe it was just his car. Just FYI
The EVO puts out a whopping 180 HP at the wheels according to vish, which is not very impressive to say the least. Three USDM Evos were dynoed and they were within a few HP of each other.

I hope the STi fares better.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...5&pagenumber=5
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Old 03-11-2003, 08:51 AM   #74
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Low end power: The JDM STi8 has the twin scroll turbo, which the USDM model is not getting. Based on the Ajaxjapan numbers of 286 ft-lbs peak and 230 ft-lbs @ 2400rpm, that is a 1.24x difference (approximately). The dyno charts I've seen from various UK and other JDM STi models all show very peaky curves, with differences from 4000rpm to 2400rpm of 1.5x to 1.8x. This seems even worse with most tuning -- while overall higher it becomes even peakier with almost all gains being at 3500+ rpms and little change below.

This is all confused by the AVCS and 2.5L engine on the USDM model which will mix things around. AVCS is supposed to, among other effects, increase torque at low RPMs -- helping to flatten out the curve. Regarding the 2.5L engine, I'm no expert, but wouldn't it be likely that the 2.5L engine would raise the whole curve up, rather than flattening it? Obviously the absolute torque value at 2400rpm would go up, but so would the 4000rpm number, making the 300 ft-lbs more easily obtainable.

While it would be great if we got the same even power delivery, without the twin-scroll it seems unlikely. All we know for sure is 300 ft-lbs at 4000rpm and 263 ft-lbs at 6000rpm. Well, and that it ought to be quite a bit better than the regular WRX at any rpm. My guess would be over 190 ft-lbs vs the 145 or so of the WRX at 2400rpm (crank, not wheel). That's getting pretty close to the regular WRX's peak torque!


Regarding WRC cars and intercooler choices, some of this might have something to do with field maintenence than sheer performance -- getting the intercooler out of the way might be useful. Remember a few years back one of the drivers using his bootlace through the drivers window into the engine compartment as a temporary throttle control after the pedal connection broke? Amazing.
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Old 03-11-2003, 10:07 AM   #75
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WRX_mundi,
Paul Hansen has mentioned a test driver who drove the JDM STi v8 (may have been a spec c) and USDM back to back. To paraphrase, the USDM made the JDM feel "slow and a bit laggy." The 2.5L will deliver on the low end torgue, I wouldn't be concerned.

As far as the Evo 8 dyno info...that is pretty disappointing. Guess the 6000prm clutch drops to get a 5.1 sec 0-60 don't seem so unreasonable...wonder what the times were without doing that? Maybe this is a bit of bargaining ammo to get dealers to drop the price markups...

TRS

ps. The SRT-4 is looking like a pretty good deal

Last edited by ToddStratton; 03-11-2003 at 10:19 AM.
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