Water/Methanol Injection FAQ

[El Gato]

Originally Posted by ka mano

I always use distilled water but my shop says the stuff from the tap is fine.

Tap water is fine, but you must check the jets more often for minerals buildup. Thats why distilled water is preferred.

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[aps2fast4u]

Thanks for the feedback guys...yea, I'll def. be using distilled water to be safer.

[albie1kanobi]

How about more info running Meth vs Denatured Alcohol.

Meth is harder to find.
Meth is cheaper.
Meth has a higher octane rating.

Where as Denatured Alcohol not as corrosive as Meth.
Denatured Alcohol could be found more locally like at a hardware store.
It is also found to be more expansive.

please, anyone, correct me if im wrong on any of this. also add any other info that is missing or useful.

[testes1010]

Originally Posted by albie1kanobi

Meth is harder to find.

HEET @ Walmart OR heating oil supply stores. 99% pure methanol.

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

wow i just installed my perrin progressive system this helped alot... is it ok to run a product called heat? its a 90% methanol and 10% alci mixture no water?

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

yea heet thats it .. is it ok to run just heet or do i need to add water to the mix?

[testes1010]

Originally Posted by STIFLYBY_RANGER

yea heet thats it .. is it ok to run just heet or do i need to add water to the mix?

you can mix or run straight. The yellow bottle of HEET is 99% methanol, the ISO-Heet is a mix of methanol & isoprophenol

[aps2fast4u]

^^^seems like that would get quite expensive....isn't heet like $2-3 per small bottle??

[testes1010]

Originally Posted by aps2fast4u

^^^seems like that would get quite expensive....isn't heet like $2-3 per small bottle??

nope less than $3 for a 6pack...

[psmBoXer]

I really recommend www.alkycontrol.com custom made kits and Julio is great to deal with. Had mine installed by him last year when I had the STi and getting it done on my Cobra soon.

[ka mano]

Originally Posted by testes1010

you can mix or run straight. ...

Yep, but the two need two different maps.
The alky's a fuel that's not getting gauged by the fuel injectors.

[jblaine]

Can you run just water injection without methanol?

Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.

This is pretty bad information.

With all due respect, I recommend leaving the answer generic instead of providing misinformation:

Sure, just be sure to tune appropriately for water injection (alone).

[Migo]

jblaine - So from what I gather from what you're saying, water injection by itself without methanol works too.

[jblaine]

It most certainly does.

[WRXRallyBlue]

Originally Posted by ka mano

Yes... it'd be good if Tim or Mick were to clarify here how much they pushed the H20-only tune on the dyno that day.

Did you find out how hard they pushed the water tune?

[tube]

Denatured alcohol is NOT methanol, it's ethanol that has been denatured with things such as Bitrex and Methanol.

Isopropyl IS NOT methanol.

I would be careful just dumping anything labeled "alcohol" into my injection system.

[cellobro]

noOb to this conversation, but with a gt/30-sized snail in the garage, this is looking good. *subscribed*

[DonkeyPunch]

Originally Posted by tube

Denatured alcohol is NOT methanol, it's ethanol that has been denatured with things such as Bitrex and Methanol.

Isopropyl IS NOT methanol.

I would be careful just dumping anything labeled "alcohol" into my injection system.

The first few weeks I was running water injection, it was with denatured alky. It works fine, just kinda expensive. Once I found a source for methanol in bulk, I went to that and haven't come back.

DP

[plus plus plus]

Do I need engine management to run this? Yes, 100***37; absolutely you HAVE TO have, at a minimum, some way of tuning fuel. Because when this sprays you will go INSANELY rich, like 7-1 rich. That is rich enough to be dangerous and can cause bore wash (this is where there is so much fluid in the cyl that it rinses the oil off the cyl walls, and the rings tear themselves and the cyl wall up.)

I dont want a ton of power, I just want the safest car possible Then leave it stock. There are no absolutes and ANYTHING you do to the motor increases the chances of it blowing up.
HOWEVER, you can make your car a LOT safer than it would have been. If you are considering this as a precautionary mod only, you can leave the timing and boost alone, and only tune to a "normal" a/f ratio as if it didnt have alch injection. Note than a "normal" non alch a/f is richer than what is considered a "normal" alch injection a/f, at least a little(in most cases).

Once installed do I remove fuel out of my fuel map to remove this insanely rich condition or can I leave my fuel map at 11:1 and use as a safe guard? or will my 11:1 map at 91 octane go rich....? These statements above seem opposing.


OK I see he is talking about the Actual AFR ratio not fuel map values....

In Speed Density using the UTEC I use 0's for values for my modded stock 850 cc injectors in my fuel map to get a slightly rich base map to start tuning with a 650/420 settings in parameters for injector size.......

What would be my new starting point using injection?

How much fuel must be pulled?

Any Ideas?

[Mel Adjusted]

For all you users of spray (nitrous) users, if you run water/alky injection you won't need to retard your timing as much and you'll have much cooler combustion chamber temps. It makes spraying much safer. I swear by it.

[Davenow]

denatured alk works 100***37; fine and is no worse for your car/system than methanol is.
You dont get the same effect that you would on meth, however the difference is pretty small and denatured will still yeild huge gains.
I ran 50/50 distilled water/denatured alk in my alk cars (and will be doing the same again in this one once I hook it up) and it was awesome. 4+ degrees of timing, 12.5-1 a/f and 23lbs of boost on the stock STI turbo.
no knock, ever.

[siegelracing]

You only lean the AFR out with between 100***37; water and about 70% water, 30% meth. With pure meth you run MUCH richer.

Stoich on gasoline = 1 Lambda = 14.65:1 AFR
Peak power on gasoline "near" 11:1 AFR = 0.75 Lambda
Stoich on methanol = 1 lambda = 6.47:1 (yes six and half)
Peak power on methanol = 0.8 lambda = 5.2:1 AFR (yes, vehicles that run straight methanol run in the FIVE to ONE Air to Fuel Ratio at WOT)
So adding 100% methanol to gasoline = moving from 11:1 AFR toward 5.2:1 AFR = getting richer.

With more than 30% water, the water is absorbing so much energy that you have to lean it out to make power... with more/straight meth, you actually run richer than you did on pump gasoline.

(flame suit on)

SS

[testes1010]

Originally Posted by siegelracing

You only lean the AFR out with between 100% water and about 70% water, 30% meth. With pure meth you run MUCH richer.

Stoich on gasoline = 1 Lambda = 14.65:1 AFR
Peak power on gasoline "near" 11:1 AFR = 0.75 Lambda
Stoich on methanol = 1 lambda = 6.47:1 (yes six and half)
Peak power on methanol = 0.8 lambda = 5.2:1 AFR (yes, vehicles that run straight methanol run in the FIVE to ONE Air to Fuel Ratio at WOT)
So adding 100% methanol to gasoline = moving from 11:1 AFR toward 5.2:1 AFR = getting richer.

With more than 30% water, the water is absorbing so much energy that you have to lean it out to make power... with more/straight meth, you actually run richer than you did on pump gasoline.

(flame suit on)

SS

Whats on paper doesn't always apply to real life. Stoich of E85 is well below 10:1 but in the real world it is safe to run it to 12.5:1. Thats why you don't always believe what you read on teh interweb....

[siegelracing]

The World's Fastest Stock Block Stock Tranny EJ205 WRX runs 10.2 to 10.4 AFR on an Innovate Wideband... Granted that's near 0.5 AFR richer than other wideband's might show, but it's still sub 11.0... At 10.5 AFR it pings...

SS

[jblaine]

Originally Posted by siegelracing

The World's Fastest Stock Block Stock Tranny EJ205 WRX runs 10.2 to 10.4 AFR on an Innovate Wideband... Granted that's near 0.5 AFR richer than other wideband's might show, but it's still sub 11.0... At 10.5 AFR it pings...

SS

And 40 other people have proof that they gained a good 10-15whp on pump gas when leaned from 10.5:1 to 11.5:1 even leaning near 12:1 from 5500RPM onward with no water, meth, or 50/50 spray.

We've all heard it before: Every single car has a single unique tune best suited for it.

At any rate, a 50/50 mix injected at a 1:5 water+meth:gas ratio (20% as typical) has a whopping 10% meth combusted. Given straight water tunes that run fine at 12.5:1 (with no power gained by richening, BTW), it's damn safe to play around 11.5:1 with a 50/50 mix at 20% spray.