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Old 07-28-2020, 12:16 AM   #226
subaru_gc8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
You are not. The pressure drop is normal.

The DAVCs will drop pressure like that, and is why Subaru started using the 11mm in the cars with DAVCs

My 2012 will do exactly the same thing as killer-b is showing, but my buddies GD with SAVCs does not.
Oh okay thanks for the explination
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:51 AM   #227
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Any thoughts as to what sort of oil pressure do I want to see up to say 7300 rpm on an 2005 EJ253 (non-AVLS)? I am trying to figure out if it needs a 9mm or if 7mm is fine. Currently my stock 7mm with T6 gives me about 65psi-70psi at high rpms, I haven't hit 7000 yet.

I know what you are thinking... it won't make any power at 7300rpm. Cams and centrifugal supercharger on there so I do not expect power to drop off.

Last edited by pcampbell; 10-02-2020 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:35 PM   #228
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I'd want to see ~85psi or better at that RPM. If the pump is sized right, the pressure will scale up with RPM. If the pump is too big, pressure drop may occur.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:36 PM   #229
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funny this thread showed up in new posts, as I just discovered today I have a leak on my oil pump on my EJ205...
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Old 10-10-2020, 05:17 PM   #230
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Default Why you don't need GR (11mm) Oil Pump in GD (10mm) Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I'd want to see ~85psi or better at that RPM. If the pump is sized right, the pressure will scale up with RPM. If the pump is too big, pressure drop may occur.


Thanks, it is a stock 7mm pump. If it does fine until higher rpms and then falls off should it be shimmed?


I want to say that I am seeing around 60psi at 6000rpm. I'm trying to rev to 7000 though. I'm not exactly sure if I should be looking at a 9mm pump, thicker oil (currently using 5w40 rotella t6) or shimming. Another option is a new 7mm pump, if perhaps the old stock one is worn and has lost some of it pumping ability. Perhaps the bearing clearances are higher due to age (208k miles).

there is no avls or avcs and also the supercharger is self contained oil so it’s pretty basic.

Last edited by pcampbell; 10-22-2020 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:55 AM   #231
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One other question. I know the pump screws have a tendency to back out. Can they back out enough to affect pumping?
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:48 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcampbell View Post
One other question. I know the pump screws have a tendency to back out. Can they back out enough to affect pumping?
Absolutely. One, or worse two, loose screws can adversely effect pressure. Also will depend which screws (suction side, pump side, or between).
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:39 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I'd want to see ~85psi or better at that RPM. If the pump is sized right, the pressure will scale up with RPM. If the pump is too big, pressure drop may occur.
I’ve noticed an oil pressure drop in the higher rpms that lead me back to this thread. I’d read it before, but since you bumped it in April, I reread it... despite the pissing match in the middle, a lot of good info here. I see right around 85psi when the engine is warm once the relief valve opens (~3000rpm and beyond). The idle pressure hangs out around 24psi.
SAVCS 04 STi
Mains: 0.0017”
Rods: 0.002”
Oil: Motul Sport 5w40
Revving to 7200rpm
External oil cooler with 200° thermostatic sandwich plate, -10 lines, no OEM cooler.
DBB turbo with restrictor on feed
Stock 10mm oil pump, no added shims
Pressure measured at galley under alternator.

I understand my mains are rather loose compared to the numbers you like to use, but seeing as I couldn’t reliably get this block line bored in a timely manner, it is what it is there. However, I’ve been noticing that at WOT, I’ll get an oil pressure drop past 5000rpms, typically from ~85psi to ~75psi. I’ve verified that my electronic gauge is reading correctly with a mechanical gauge, made sure the oil cooler setup isn’t restricting (shouldn’t be, as -10 is about the be same ID as the block passages). KillerB pickup and baffle, so no cracked pickup. I checked the pump prior to installing for any burrs as well as loose screws on the backing plate. 5000-5100rpm happens to be the range where my AVCS goes to 0, which I believe would allow for more oil flow, potentially dropping pressure? I’m somewhat stumped here, and given the info you’ve posted, this could even indicate the pump is oversized, no? It’s been mentioned that using an 11mm pump on SAVCS is too much pump and leads to aerating/pressure drop. But in certain circumstances, could even the 10mm be too large for a single AVCS engine? The pressure drop doesn’t really concern me, except for on the track where that 75psi can get closer to 65psi

Last edited by brecks; 10-27-2020 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:29 PM   #234
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Brecks,
What is your normal max RPM? Do you have any data logging capability?
It could easily be several things happening simultaneously. Your small, stock pump could be pooping out due to loose bearing clearances or it could be cavitating at higher RPM's. The centrifugal forces due to the high crankshaft rotation speeds (plus loose clearances) could also affect the oil system needs.
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Old 10-28-2020, 07:13 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brecks View Post
I’m somewhat stumped here, and given the info you’ve posted, this could even indicate the pump is oversized, no? It’s been mentioned that using an 11mm pump on SAVCS is too much pump and leads to aerating/pressure drop. But in certain circumstances, could even the 10mm be too large for a single AVCS engine? The pressure drop doesn’t really concern me, except for on the track where that 75psi can get closer to 65psi
Can you e-mail me a log?

-10 lines are the smallest we recommend and should be fine for your RPM. Who's kit? Some have garbage fittings and/or sandwich adapters that can have funky issues with turbulence or pressure drop at certain RPMs.

DBB turbo? What's that? BB or journal? What size restrictor?

Were the pump clearances checked?

Very rare to have bypass issues on the 10mm; it's well matched to that engine. I've seen the 10mm pump work flawlessly to 10,000 RPM on these engines so I don't think it's an issue of RPM.
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Old 10-28-2020, 02:24 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Brecks,
What is your normal max RPM? Do you have any data logging capability?
It could easily be several things happening simultaneously. Your small, stock pump could be pooping out due to loose bearing clearances or it could be cavitating at higher RPM's. The centrifugal forces due to the high crankshaft rotation speeds (plus loose clearances) could also affect the oil system needs.
By normal max rpm, do you mean normal shift rpm? It’s right at 7000, 7200 as redline is just a cushion for certain situations where it’s best to run the rpm out some vs upshifting. I don’t have the data logging function of the oil pressure gauge wired up, however I could change that quite easily. Clearly if it’s cavitating up top, adding a shim would do no good. Possible that my looser clearance are causing the oiling needs to be greater than the pump can provide? I know KillerB has stated that increasing the clearances with a built motor doesn’t typically justify the need for a bigger pump.
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Old 10-28-2020, 02:50 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Can you e-mail me a log?

-10 lines are the smallest we recommend and should be fine for your RPM. Who's kit? Some have garbage fittings and/or sandwich adapters that can have funky issues with turbulence or pressure drop at certain RPMs.

DBB turbo? What's that? BB or journal? What size restrictor?

Were the pump clearances checked?

Very rare to have bypass issues on the 10mm; it's well matched to that engine. I've seen the 10mm pump work flawlessly to 10,000 RPM on these engines so I don't think it's an issue of RPM.
Once I hook up the AEM gauge to an input on the ECU, I certainly can. It’s very consistent at 5000rpm.

The cooler was pieces together, consisting of Russell fittings and hose (straight off the sandwich plate, 90 into the cooler, 120 out, straight back into the sandwich plate) a Mocal thermostatic sandwich plate, and a 16 row 1-series Setrab core. I suppose I could always disconnect the sandwich plate and bypass the whole cooler circuit to see if the issue persists.

DBB (dual ball bearing) EFR 7163. The restrictor on the turbo is a 1.5mm

I did not check the clearances for the rotor/backing plate, only checked that the screws were properly fastened and that the relief valve functioned as it should. The pump was brand new, so I didn’t even think to check that.

By saying it’s not an issue of rpm, is this to say that at my rpm the pump shouldn’t be outflowed by the oil demands? It’s my understanding that adding a shim to the pump wouldn’t help the issue much, and is more of a bandaid. To me it seems like there’s a flow restriction somewhere.. seems like disconnecting the oil cooler cuircut might be a good place to start
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:59 PM   #238
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brecks, I think you're going in the right direction by removing the cooler/adapter from the circuit. Process of elimination.

Going from OEM journal to a BB turbo typically reduced oiling demand, which is what you've done here. Along with increasing the mains it's typically a wash... or not enough to make an appreciable difference.

It's almost as if you have an AVCS bleed.

By 'not an issue of RPM' I mean that the 10mm has no issue with RPM. You should be able to rev far above your target without any pressure drop. It should continue to climb.
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Old 10-31-2020, 04:18 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
brecks, I think you're going in the right direction by removing the cooler/adapter from the circuit. Process of elimination.

Going from OEM journal to a BB turbo typically reduced oiling demand, which is what you've done here. Along with increasing the mains it's typically a wash... or not enough to make an appreciable difference.

It's almost as if you have an AVCS bleed.

By 'not an issue of RPM' I mean that the 10mm has no issue with RPM. You should be able to rev far above your target without any pressure drop. It should continue to climb.
I ended up getting some logs of the condition, and it appears quite related to AVCS to me. I didn't disconnect the oil cooler circuit yet, though that's next on the troubleshooting list.

In the logs, you can see that the pressure drop coincides with when AVCS goes to 0... the pressure drops and stays there until the AVCS comes back up. I think your AVCS bleed theory is looking spot on

If you'll PM me an email, I'd be more than happy to send over the logs


Edit: For those interested, I changed the RPM for which AVCS goes to zero and the pressure drop followed, so it's definitely related to AVCS. I'd say it's safe to say it's not oil pump related.

KillerB pointed out that as the car loads (2500rpm, WOT) my left side AVCS was lagging behind the right side by ~5-10deg. By about 2900rpm, they were both reading where they should, and continued to read within 1-2deg for the rest of the pull. What's strange, is that on partial throttle and cruise, they both read the same- no lagging. I removed, cleaned, and swapped OCVs between left and right, but observed the same pressure drop/left side lag. I may try swapping cam sensors, but I have a feeling that it's not an electrical issue, because cam sensors don't cause oil pressure drops

Log view of condition:
https://imgur.com/a/COPTGcT

Last edited by brecks; 11-23-2020 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 08-02-2021, 04:27 PM   #240
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^ did you ever get this sorted out?
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Old 08-09-2021, 02:37 PM   #241
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So read the whole thread and lots more, plus watched all videos I could find about EJ oil pumps and its funny how even the top builders are still split between the three.

I'm in the process of building a de-stroker for track use and after talking to some of the top subaru eng builders, that have a great track record, and some very knowledgeable people that are well known on here, and I was given all three suggestion. Reading and and talking to knowledgeable people it came to that a 10mm is the way to go. Then after requesting eng build quotes, one shops told me to use a 11mm shimmed and ported, another said 10mm or 11mm would work for my needs and two other builders said to use a JDM 12mm. I know of a guy in NJ who tracks his GD for podium placement and he also uses a 12mm. Its going to be a 05 STi 2.3 de-stroker with D25 SAVCS closed deck at around 500whp with a GT3582 going to be used on a street course, not drag.

I'm still leaning towered the 10mm or maybe a 11mm ported and shimmed but its funny how after all these years, there is still no 100% answer. The only reason why the shops are suggesting different pumps might be due to each one picking different kind of bearing clearance. Any thought behind this?

Last edited by BlackFighter; 08-09-2021 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 08:47 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFighter View Post
So read the whole thread and lots more, plus watched all videos I could find about EJ oil pumps and its funny how even the top builders are still split between the three.

I'm in the process of building a de-stroker for track use and after talking to some of the top subaru eng builders, that have a great track record, and some very knowledgeable people that are well known on here, and I was given all three suggestion. Reading and and talking to knowledgeable people it came to that a 10mm is the way to go. Then after requesting eng build quotes, one shops told me to use a 11mm shimmed and ported, another said 10mm or 11mm would work for my needs and two other builders said to use a JDM 12mm. I know of a guy in NJ who tracks his GD for podium placement and he also uses a 12mm. Its going to be a 05 STi 2.3 de-stroker with D25 SAVCS closed deck at around 500whp with a GT3582 going to be used on a street course, not drag.

I'm still leaning towered the 10mm or maybe a 11mm ported and shimmed but its funny how after all these years, there is still no 100% answer. The only reason why the shops are suggesting different pumps might be due to each one picking different kind of bearing clearance. Any thought behind this?
Within the next few weeks we have scheduled to run all 3 pumps on the same engine. One of the parameters we'll be measuring is the actual oil flow into the engine, which no one has ever done or documented before. Maybe we will put some of this debate to rest.
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Old 08-09-2021, 11:05 PM   #243
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Taps foot. How long has this been discussed? LoL
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Old 08-10-2021, 08:34 AM   #244
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Taps foot. How long has this been discussed? LoL
Too long!!

It has been a crazy year. All of our resources have been put into production for nearly the last year straight. Extracurricular activities have taken a backseat
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Old 08-30-2021, 03:50 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
fwiw i ran the stock 8mm pump when i boosted my N/A EJ251. would only lose oil pressure once the oil got really, really hot. installed an oil cooler and problem solved.

no idea how different the demands are on the N/A donks with SOHC heads though.
did you try running a thicker oil before adding the oil cooler ?
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Old 08-31-2021, 09:15 AM   #246
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Quote:
Within the next few weeks we have scheduled to run all 3 pumps on the same engine. One of the parameters we'll be measuring is the actual oil flow into the engine, which no one has ever done or documented before. Maybe we will put some of this debate to rest.
Hey, have you guys done any testing yet on the 3 different pumps?
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Old 08-31-2021, 08:08 PM   #247
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Hey, have you guys done any testing yet on the 3 different pumps?
The dyno rig is almost complete
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Old 10-19-2021, 11:28 AM   #248
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The dyno rig is almost complete
Is the dyno rig complete yet
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Old 10-19-2021, 01:11 PM   #249
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Is the dyno rig complete yet
It is, but we're waiting on some software upgrades from Mustang so we are kind of stuck right now. We should have this sorted out in the coming few weeks.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:53 AM   #250
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Neat stuff...



Solid = 10mm

Dashed = 11mm

Wide Dashed = 12mm

All pumps were untouched OEM, except for initial disassembly and inspection for smooth action. We are going to be doing a follow-up, with shims, and some other stuff

Also, if you look at the comments at the top you can see run each run; 1, 2, and 3. They correspond with the data at the bottom of the page.

Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 11-30-2021 at 01:06 PM.
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