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Old 03-28-2018, 12:35 PM   #8651
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I adore my Hsu Research HB-1 Mk2s bookshelf speakers I use for my mains and surrounds. I'd have no qualms suggesting their in-wall variant.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hiw-1.html
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:39 PM   #8652
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I think Multi channel audio has to be better fundamentally than stereo. Stereo is really multichannel audio with the minimum channel count. In practice though, i dont know how many great multi-channel audio mastering their are.
Mmm I dunno if I would say that.. 2ch stereo gives you all the imaging you need. If you go see a band or orchestra, they are usually playing in front of you. Not all around you.
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:41 PM   #8653
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If you go see a band or orchestra, they are usually playing in front of you. Not all around you.
:jumps: Oh damn, the horn section snuck up behind me again!
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:45 PM   #8654
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Trying to imagine James Hetfield running around a stadium trying to recreate the feel the black album has on DVD-A
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:49 PM   #8655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
I adore my Hsu Research HB-1 Mk2s bookshelf speakers I use for my mains and surrounds. I'd have no qualms suggesting their in-wall variant.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hiw-1.html
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The in-wall version of our HB-1 MK2, this is what you need if the spouse do not want any speakers on her floor!
!!!!!!!
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:05 PM   #8656
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Make sure the Denon is configured properly as well. P.15 in the manual covers ARC. HDMI control need to be set to "on"
Doh! I had set up the Denon correctly but did not press the TV button to save the settings.

Also turned the Dolby+ in the TCL to "off" and selected "stereo"

Works great.

Thx all
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:07 PM   #8657
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Mmm I dunno if I would say that.. 2ch stereo gives you all the imaging you need. If you go see a band or orchestra, they are usually playing in front of you. Not all around you.
Not true at all, you are experiencing reflections from the venue, and it is a major part of the percieved sound
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:08 PM   #8658
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!!!!!!!
Yeah...I probably should have gone that route. My GF hates looking at my speakers.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:12 PM   #8659
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Not true at all, you are experiencing reflections from the venue, and it is a major part of the percieved sound
Then just turn on the "stadium" or "hall" dsp on your receiver/processor

That isn't what SACD or DVDA is about at all and not what they are "recreating".
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:16 PM   #8660
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Well, to be fair, it often is when it is when it's a live album.

The 5.1 mixes I've enjoyed the most so far have been those made to place you "within" the music as opposed to being presented with the music. It's very cool, given the source material, but I'd say "fundamental" is too strong a descriptor.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:21 PM   #8661
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Then just turn on the "stadium" or "hall" dsp on your receiver/processor

That isn't what SACD or DVDA is about at all and not what they are "recreating".
It absolutely is what multichannel audio strives to recreate, the venue and sense of space of the recording, or at least the mastering engineer's take on what it should be

Otherwise, you could create full 3D "virtual reality audio" with Binaural and headphones.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:30 PM   #8662
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From Dr Floyd Toole, literally one of the most respected people in the field.

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The addition of reverberation to the playback of stereo recordings is absolutely not comparable to what I have discussed above. I find it to be generally not acceptable, and frequently very offensive. I never do it.

The idea that two-channel stereo is somehow more "pure" than multichannel audio is misguided. In spite of some examples of very bad taste in the days of quadraphonic audio, and now, the benefits are there, and gradually recording engineers will learn how to use the new medium. It is the better solution. However, I feel that more than five channels are needed. I live with the Logic 7 system in its 7-channel mode, and I cannot now go back to 5.1. The sense of envelopment and space is much more realistic with the additional channels (two sides and two rears), and it remains so even when you turn your head or move around the room. Remember, multichannel audio is a social experience - more than one person can enjoy it.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:37 PM   #8663
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Originally Posted by Dizmal View Post
Mmm I dunno if I would say that.. 2ch stereo gives you all the imaging you need. If you go see a band or orchestra, they are usually playing in front of you. Not all around you.
Depends on where you sit.
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Originally Posted by wrxlvr View Post
:jumps: Oh damn, the horn section snuck up behind me again!
To be fair, most orchestral trombone parts leave plenty of time for that to be possible. The first movement of Mahler's 6th Symphony features an entire page of rests and cues for the low brass.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:44 PM   #8664
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:16 PM   #8665
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
Well, to be fair, it often is when it is when it's a live album.

The 5.1 mixes I've enjoyed the most so far have been those made to place you "within" the music as opposed to being presented with the music. It's very cool, given the source material, but I'd say "fundamental" is too strong a descriptor.
Well, again with Metallica's black album you have James Hetfield's voice clearly coming separately from all 5 speakers during certain songs.. During 1 song it goes around the speakers in a clockwise fashion.. He usually is not standing in 5 different locations in the recording studio or around the stadium. You certainly aren't getting that much reverb from a stadium venue to give you that impression and certainly not at an outdoor amphitheater such as Red Rocks.

So to say that SACD/DVD-A is trying to reproduce the feeling of a concert venue, I have to disagree with that. I've never heard a singers voice come from the right front of me(only), to the right rear(only) to the left rear(only) to the left front of me(only) to the center of the stage. Do I feel enveloped by sound in a stadium? Sure. But not like what this multi-channel music has sounded like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
It absolutely is what multichannel audio strives to recreate, the venue and sense of space of the recording, or at least the mastering engineer's take on what it should be

Otherwise, you could create full 3D "virtual reality audio" with Binaural and headphones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
From Dr Floyd Toole, literally one of the most respected people in the field.
Well, he can be respected and still be wrong. It's why multi-channel music is pretty much dead(among the masses and the snobs). Most people purchased it for the high res audio, not necessarily the multi-channel playback.
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:20 PM   #8666
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Also, most critical listeners have acoustically treated rooms to prevent the type of reverberation you experience in a stadium venue. It's not something people desire and again, not what the format was trying to recreate.
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:23 PM   #8667
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The problem with multi channel audio is people want blue tooth speakers and convenience lifestyle products. Hell most people don't even set up proper stereos these days, and they compress the crap out of recordings for low fidelity pop. Multichannel done well is a PITA and expensive to implement in the home, and the recording studios don't have any incentive to produce suitable content optimized for said media.

Floyd Toole could certainly be wrong and you could certainly be right, in the same way I could possibly correct hawking on something related to black holes (extra dramatic I know, but not far off)
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:26 PM   #8668
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Also, most critical listeners have acoustically treated rooms to prevent the type of reverberation you experience in a stadium venue. It's not something people desire and again, not what the format was trying to recreate.
People treat rooms to get the right amount of reverb to simulate a suitable compromise of reflected, absorbed, and diffused sound. They are crudely trying to mimic what multichannel could do with precision.

The goal of eliminating reverb entirely is an Anechoic chamber which is a terrible environment for listening to music
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:28 PM   #8669
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My point was that some multichannel live recordings were, in fact, engineered to replicate the venue experience with the musical stage up front and crowd noise and room ambiance (including reverb) in the surround channels. It's certainly not the intention of all multichannel music to do that, though.

I like the enveloping sound of a well mastered 5.1 audio track. Masses and snobs be damned.
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:31 PM   #8670
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150 pound TV wall mounted with 4 lag bolts on 2 studs good? Was going to add a couple of those 50 lb drywall anchors as well. Should be good, right?
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:55 PM   #8671
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Where are you getting a 150lb. TV? From a time machine? The last TV I had that weighed even close to that was a circa-2000 rear projector.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:05 PM   #8672
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:11 PM   #8673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
The problem with multi channel audio is people want blue tooth speakers and convenience lifestyle products. Hell most people don't even set up proper stereos these days, and they compress the crap out of recordings for low fidelity pop. Multichannel done well is a PITA and expensive to implement in the home, and the recording studios don't have any incentive to produce suitable content optimized for said media.

Floyd Toole could certainly be wrong and you could certainly be right, in the same way I could possibly correct hawking on something related to black holes (extra dramatic I know, but not far off)
Besides the plebs who want cheap music. You won't see too many "audiophiles" with $100k multi-channel listening rooms. But you will find them with 2ch stereo systems.

You know why it's hard to do right? Because it isn't natural to the process. If it were natural to the process of making music, it wouldn't be hard to do. Musicians are artists, the folks in the recording studio also consider themselves "artists". If they thought multi-channel music was the way to go they would be doing it more.

It is also genre specific. Most rock bands have bass to the left, guitar to the right, singer in the middle with drums behind them. Not much more needed than 2 channels to recreate it.

Now if you have an artist like Wayne Coyne and The Flaming Lips with their acid rock, you have a band and genre suitable for the format. They made a great multi-channel album with Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots. But good luck trying to recreate it in a concert venue. They tried "multi-channel concerts" for their Zaireeka album and it wasn't exactly easy to pull off, nor cheap. Again, because it isn't natural to how most live concerts are performed; band and the wall of sound in front, audience in the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
People treat rooms to get the right amount of reverb to simulate a suitable compromise of reflected, absorbed, and diffused sound. They are crudely trying to mimic what multichannel could do with precision.

The goal of eliminating reverb entirely is an Anechoic chamber which is a terrible environment for listening to music
Good lord you are serious aren't you?

Also, no one said eliminating reverb. No one acoustically treats their room to make it anechoic. They do it to prevent the "stadium effect" which you think multi-channel music try's to reproduce.

I think I'll just agree to disagree.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:13 PM   #8674
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Jesus, dude. That's redonk. I thought my old as dirt 52" was heavy at ~80lbs. The current crop of 75" tv's is 10-15 lbs. lighter than that. +10" = more than double the weight?? Heh.

I'd make sure those lag bolts are good. I remember tossing out and replacing the crappy ones that came with my wall mount when put my TV up. I got nothing beyond that. Make sure you are using a good mount. If it has additional mounting points, maybe consider using 6 bolts?
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:42 PM   #8675
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Besides the plebs who want cheap music. You won't see too many "audiophiles" with $100k multi-channel listening rooms. But you will find them with 2ch stereo systems.



Also, no one said eliminating reverb.
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Also, most critical listeners have acoustically treated rooms to prevent the type of reverberation you experience in a stadium venue.

so there is a different type of reverb called "stadium effect" these days? nope. Sound is either reflected, absorbed or diffused. The goal of acoustic treatment in conventional 2 channel audio is to achieve a reasonable and compromised balance of these at the boundaries, such that you create a reasonable facsimile of space and venue. Also controlling of room nodes and bass frequencies of course.

audiophiles don't have multichannel listening rooms because there isnt much good material as previously discussed. Also audiophiles arnt exactly a good benchmark study group for scientific rigor.


You are entitled to your own opinions of course. But its clear they arnt supported by a technical basis.
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