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09-02-2003, 01:44 PM | #1 |
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A day at Watkins Glen
Hi All,
I want to share some impressions on my first track day at Watkins Glen with the STi. I run in the open run group and have been to this track a couple of times this year with an E36 M3: The weather was raining with no real standing water but a fair ammount of running water. In the rain with the OEM tires - I was hitting 115-120 at the end of the back straight - I was pretty much in 4th and 5th for the entire track - had a couple of butt puckering moments - put other than that I was at 8.5/10ths. No real times though! I was either at the rev limiter or shifting into 5th at the end of the front straight, the back straight, the up hill. I passed pretty much anybody I wanted except a Porsche GT3 that had amazing rain tires - made it look like (s)he was on dry track! The gear ratios are poorly chosen for this track The seats SUCK - need to install the Recarro's - after 6 hours of driving my back was sore. The controls in general are much to light - the clutch, throttle, steering. The spring rate is sub-optimal - the car NEEDS to be lower, and tends to bounce a bit. Transitions between understeer, oversteer and neutral happens quickly and with sensitive controls can be interesting I suspect that there is to much compliance in parts of the suspension and not enough in other parts. Suspension setting are unknown - tire pressures are 30 front, 32 rear. Definitely needs work... Shifter is lousy - 1 and 3 get confused as do 2 and 4 - I had a couple of close calls. This car has only had the brake pads and fluid changed - used the new Ferrado 3000 in the front and 2500 in the rear. Not sure what I think about these pads - I am used to the Hawk Blues which just seem to work at the expense of Rotors! The tuners are getting ~ 350-375 hp with few mods - retuned computer, exhaust, air intake - I wonder if the car can handle this? I am struggling with if I want to stay normally aspirated or turboed on the track. the M3 spoiled me. All in all the STi is a fast car but I am not WOW'ed with it! There is always the Z06... Ray
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09-02-2003, 02:00 PM | #2 | |
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Re: A day at Watkins Glen
Quote:
I'd at least make it 32F 30R. Maybe even a little more up front. then again, what do I know |
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09-02-2003, 02:02 PM | #3 |
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Your tire pressures seem way too low for stock tires on a recetrack,even in the wet. I would have thought at least 40psi front, maybe 38 rear....could have affected handling significantly.
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09-02-2003, 02:12 PM | #4 |
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at least the fronts should be higher than the rears, I think.
40F 36R was a little high for autocross, but may have worked out better on the track. 32F 30R was nice for autocross. |
09-02-2003, 02:15 PM | #5 | |
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Re: A day at Watkins Glen
Quote:
offset |
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09-02-2003, 02:33 PM | #6 |
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Good input - I did not take the time to play with the tire preassures I should have - I thought I had read that these were good starting preassures - 40 psi cold is way to much to start with (for most tires I have used).
I am 6'2" @ 175 - these seat don't work well for me - I have bad knees and need good thigh support. |
09-02-2003, 02:36 PM | #7 |
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So, you passed everyone but...
You didn't like it???
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09-02-2003, 02:39 PM | #8 |
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I am not sure - plenty of power - just need to get used to it I guess - I come from a nicely set up M3 so it is very different - turbo vs normally asperated, rwd vs awd...
Ray |
09-02-2003, 03:49 PM | #9 |
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Re: Tire pressures. A good rule of thumb is to add about 5psi to street pressure when you go to the track on street tires (with most R-rated street legal tires it's usually(depending on the construction of the tire) the opposite-you drop about 5psi from street). When I took my WRX to the track I ran 40/37 cold and it worked great (S-03s)--without that the car would have damaged the stree tires as the sidewalls tend to roll over. True, the STI has less body roll than a WRX, but the same general rules would apply. When the stock tires heat up , you can expect about a 5 psi gain if you check them right when you come in from the track--45psi on a high performance "hot" street tire is just about right IMHO.
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09-02-2003, 04:23 PM | #10 |
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Yea, I still use the old shoe polish trick - But I am starting to use a pyrometer more and more...
Ray |
09-02-2003, 05:12 PM | #11 |
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Yeah, I used a pyrometer for awhile, especially when I raced. But you really need a pit crew or someone who can check the temps right in the pits before any chance for the tires to cool down to make a pyrometer much use. Main use I found for the pyrometer was to get an idea of the temperature spread across the tire and to try to even that out. You can still learn quite a bit by a simple tire gauge, and the chalk method is still very useful. Good luck. I think the STI, with its differentials and DCCD would take quite a bit of getting used to on the track, but the rewards should be huge. If I had one I'd probably stick some of those super new Michelin R-rated street tires on it for the track, along with some negative camber in front. The STI has so much potential I think it would overwhelm most any street tire after a few hard laps--with state of the art R-rubber and a little practice and a good alignment it should be an awesome track car.
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09-02-2003, 09:42 PM | #12 | |
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Re: A day at Watkins Glen
Quote:
Bill Going to the Glen the end of September |
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09-02-2003, 10:12 PM | #13 | |
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Re: A day at Watkins Glen
Quote:
As far as the shifter goes, I think you just need to get used to it. In the last autox I had a chance to use 3rd in the rain on one relatively straight portion and all it took was split-second thought "3rd?" and it was done. With 4K miles on the car, the shifting is basically transparent for me now. Just let it center briefly and it is smooooooth and it eats up fast shifts. Good luck. TRS Last edited by ToddStratton; 09-02-2003 at 10:17 PM. |
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09-03-2003, 10:59 AM | #14 |
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Hi All,
As I implied, I am sure some of my issues are all part of the learning curve - I was in a new car - ~1500 miles, in less than ideal conditions - raining. The shifter will probably get better over time. I am still not content with the suspension feel - I need to look into bushings and springs - There are some STi springs that are a bit lower and stiffer than the OEM STi springs that someone mentioned as well as the STi rear locating members both seem like a good way to start - I am not sure what exists for the front of the car... Then there are TIRES - but, I need to continue with the street tires until I have a better feel for the car - it is fast enough to get me into serious trouble right now :-) I am going to NHIS in a month or so and perhaps back to the Glen so my saga will continue. I generally use the pyrometer to get a relative reading across the tire to see how the tire pressures/suspension settings are doing - I usually have it with me in the car, pull into pit lane - out of the way and jump out and do some quick check A the Glen in my M3, I was around 130+- at the end of the back straight - Well into 5th. I am sure that it can be done much faster... Ray |
09-03-2003, 11:07 AM | #15 |
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That's cranking along in the M3. I could maybe hit 120 in my 328is, but I wasn't quite flat out thru the esses. Not enough cajones yet.
In dry conditions, the STi should be faster than the E36 M3 I'd think. The handling and steering feel is quite a bit different from the BMW, but I think the trick will be learning to trust the diffs to pull the car where you tell it to go. It's a pretty amazing car. Porterfield can make up Hawk Blues for the STi. I hope to have a set before going to the Glen. Bill |
09-03-2003, 11:19 AM | #16 |
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I agree that the STi will be faster - there is the small difference in HP that will help :-) I agree that I need to learn what the car will do for me. I spoke with Porterfield the day after I spent $10e6 to 'next day' the Ferrado's, and found that they will give me any brake material I want. I also need to figure out the brake rotor thing - with the OEM parts running $800 for the front pair... I guess DBA has them for a lot less...
Enjoy the Glen - It continues to be my favorite track. Ray |
09-03-2003, 11:50 AM | #17 |
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All you guys who play on the Glen should put a posting out in the Tri-State forum when you're going to be in the area. There's a couple of us up in Ithaca and the surrounding areas pretty close by, might be neat to get together with some of you guys.
I'm ashamed to say I live like 20min from the track and have yet to take my car out on it... I'm too scared I'll wreck it, which I can't afford if the insurance decides not to cover it. |
09-03-2003, 12:47 PM | #18 |
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$800 bucks for the rotors! Gack! I thought the pads were bad! I have to check with my dealer & see what they want for 'em.
If you drive using your head, the track is safer than the street IMO. Everyone's focused on what they're doing, no intersections, and no wife nagging at you to slow down. Bill |
09-03-2003, 12:49 PM | #19 | |||||||
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Re: A day at Watkins Glen
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On the hillclimb, I did lots of 2->3->4->2 sets, and there was only one corner that gave me problems. For some reason, 3 out of 5 runs I had problems going from 2 to 3. On one I just gave up and went to 4th (ended up at 4k rpm, so it wasn't a huge loss). Only on that one corner, and only that one shift. I'm guessing it is me more than the shifter. Quote:
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Here's some in-car video from my hill climb. Stock STi on stock tires (with 4500 total miles, 2 road course days, and about 75 autocross runs on them). Beat all the Porsches, but lost to an AS C4 Corvette and ESP Camaro (both on big Hoosiers and prepared for their classes, and probably better drivers too). About 1 second faster than the other 2 STis. All videos are the same, just different format/quality. Top speed is about 90mph during the right hander that slides the car toward the edge. Shift indicator is at about 6300rpm. 23MB MPEG1 / 10MB DIVX / 80MB DIVX |
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09-03-2003, 01:15 PM | #20 |
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Hi WRX_Mundi,
What are you using to brace the 6 points with - I was looking at the Speedware bar - I used this one in the M3 and thought it was well built - I would need to move the downward locating arms to the rear seat belt locations so I can move the seat back far enough Thanks for posting the video - It looked great! I don't wish a drought on anyone - but the last 2 track events - WGI and Mount Tremblant had mostly rain... So I could use some nice weather to start getting a real sense of my car. I am partial to the Porsches myself and think the GT3 is a great car - but I would have some concerns of taking a $100k car and tracking it... I need to decide haw far to take the suspensin thing myself - I need to keep the car streetable for the winter. I like the Recarro SRD's and have a set that I pulled out of my last car - works well for me - I don't mind loosing the side air bags or the excess weight - but that is just a risk I am willing to take... |
09-03-2003, 01:33 PM | #21 | |||
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Quote:
I'd really like a real cage, but I need to keep the back seat usable. Tradeoffs of a daily driver / race car. Quote:
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09-03-2003, 04:15 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Re: A day at Watkins Glen
Quote:
1) the guardrails looked awfully low. 2)some places did not have guardrails!! Thanks for posting, great video. You guys in the high altitudes make it look easy. I had a difficult time driving up/down Pikes Peak at 5 mph!! |
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09-03-2003, 04:47 PM | #23 | |
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Re: Re: Re: A day at Watkins Glen
Quote:
Most of the danger is more hitting the mountain on this course -- turn 2 ("The Wall") got one car this weekend and after (unintentionally) late braking into the corner I learned some respect. The concrete barrier on 5 has managed to catch some cars (thank goodness since that's a big drop). Apparently turn 6 ("The Rocks") gets some cars (I didn't push it very hard -- having the car sliding a bit at 60 mph is fun enough). Turn 8 right before the finish often gets cars to slide into the side of the road -- I've seen one go onto its door. I didn't feel like I was pushing it too hard except at Sky corner where I really was trying not to lift -- I was using every bit of track on the left going in and trying to touch the road edge at the apex. That is definately a pucker factor corner. There are much worse places for hillclimbs. I think I'll stick with just this one. Road courses seem much safer for both drivers and cars. Besides, with lapping days / driving schools, they're probably covered by insurance as well, where it is clear the hillclimb is not (at least for car damage). |
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