Water/Methanol Injection FAQ - Page 13

Homemade WRX · 05-28-2020, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphi

Has anyone here gone direct port? I've been thinking about going to an Aquamist setup for safety and the fact its the best Methanol Kit on the market without standalone controllers and what not.

I know a Aquamist had their PDM controlled kit (model number escapes me) but running it port style was common from what I recall. If I recall they had the check valves to keep vacuum from sucking fluid into the port as well.

My goofy engineer ass whats to run a tiny nozzle pre compressor (I'm aware of the risks), then another small one post compressor (not enough for it to condense in the intercooler) and then post intercooler.

Get all that heat out. Then again, if you can shoot directly over the valve, and keep your air mass fraction up by not vaporizing the water/meth charge....

Would be an interesting test. I've seen how this principle works with high secondary injectors and the addition time for latent heat of vaporization won out over shooting past the valve.

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Delphi · 05-28-2020, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

I know a Aquamist had their PDM controlled kit (model number escapes me) but running it port style was common from what I recall. If I recall they had the check valves to keep vacuum from sucking fluid into the port as well.

My goofy engineer ass whats to run a tiny nozzle pre compressor (I'm aware of the risks), then another small one post compressor (not enough for it to condense in the intercooler) and then post intercooler.

Get all that heat out. Then again, if you can shoot directly over the valve, and keep your air mass fraction up by not vaporizing the water/meth charge....

Would be an interesting test. I've seen how this principle works with high secondary injectors and the addition time for latent heat of vaporization won out over shooting past the valve.

I wish I was more capable with tuning because I would love to try that.

With the Aquamist setup from what I understand is that you run the port injectors along with a pre throttle body injector that is 2x the size of the port injectors. I've been talking with my tuner to see what the best avenue is for me, he has a lot of experience with the Aquamist stuff so who knows I may stay single injector. I plan on adding some BC 272 cams as well and I am looking at a bigger hotside for the turbo to carry out the power. The T3 0.63 on my SX257 is awesome on the street but adding an extra 500-600rpm might make it a restriction. A T3 0.82 without e85 here in Canada should be the sweet spot with Cams and a good meth system.

Grantmac · 05-30-2020, 12:59 PM

I'm running a single nozzle in the upstream end tank of my TMIC right now with success. I wasn't convinced that I'd get even fluid distribution with the nozzle close to the TB.

I may eventually go for a dual nozzle system with each positioned adjacent to the inlet pipes but for now the nozzle is simply positioned between them.

I do get a little excess fueling on shifts which is likely residual fluid in the IC but not enough to cause an issue. My system allows me to prime from the driver's seat so I can also use it to combat heat soak in theory although the car obviously doesn't idle that well ingesting fluid so I need to pulse it for a second or two at a time.

pcampbell · 05-31-2020, 07:43 AM

Just curious, why not after the intercooler?

Grantmac · 06-04-2020, 02:57 AM

I wanted to give the fluid longer to phase change, help improve IC efficiency and also possibly distribute the fluid more evenly.

In theory it should do all that. In practice I don't have any way to confirm that it's better than just before the throttle plate.

blurred · 06-04-2020, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grantmac

I wanted to give the fluid longer to phase change, help improve IC efficiency and also possibly distribute the fluid more evenly.

In theory it should do all that. In practice I don't have any way to confirm that it's better than just before the throttle plate.

No, its actually not good before the intercooler, you need it to be mist when in the intake manifold in order to take some heat away from combustion and allow the meth to act as a fuel. You are doing more harm than good.

Delphi · 06-04-2020, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blurred

No, its actually not good before the intercooler, you need it to be mist when in the intake manifold in order to take some heat away from combustion and allow the meth to act as a fuel. You are doing more harm than good.

A small nozzle pre intercooler does help cool the charge a lot. But you still require a big nozzle in a standard place.

Homemade WRX · 06-04-2020, 09:51 PM

And a small nozzle pre-compressor can actually increase mass flow rate but if done incorrectly, it can etch/damage the compressor wheel.

pcampbell · 06-05-2020, 07:25 AM

Any guideline for what is too big of a single nozzle? I know devils own makes bigger single nozzles than snow. I’m on a DO5 now and it’s great but with more boost would like to move up to the next size which is a DO7.

murrdogg24 · 06-05-2020, 07:32 AM

back when i had my smc kit, i had the nozzle underneath the tmic outlet directly in front of the throttle body. it seemed to work well for added boost in the higher rpm's, this was on the stock v8 ej207 with the vf37, hitting 25psi.

Homemade WRX · 06-05-2020, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcampbell

Any guideline for what is too big of a single nozzle? I know devils own makes bigger single nozzles than snow. I’m on a DO5 now and it’s great but with more boost would like to move up to the next size which is a DO7.

I simply made my own sizing calculator for nozzle selection as there are so many nozzles and pressures on the market. So first calculate what your nozzle is really putting out.

Grantmac · 06-05-2020, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blurred

No, its actually not good before the intercooler, you need it to be mist when in the intake manifold in order to take some heat away from combustion and allow the meth to act as a fuel. You are doing more harm than good.

I disagree. The methanol will still burn as a vapor and I'm nowhere near the temperature required to vaporize water. The fluid remains as a mist while it travels through the intercooler where it helps pull heat. Also allows better distribution compared to aiming it at just one spot near the throttle body.

Running 20psi with a k04 on crappy Canadian fuel (91 equivalent) and 13 degrees of timing at peak torque.

RakumiAzuri · 06-17-2020, 06:08 AM

Has anyone added one of these kits to the 2015-2020 WRX? E85 isn't a, reasonable, option where I live for a few reasons. Were there any issues or unforeseen draw backs?

Homemade WRX · 06-17-2020, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RakumiAzuri

Has anyone added one of these kits to the 2015-2020 WRX? E85 isn't a, reasonable, option where I live for a few reasons. Were there any issues or unforeseen draw backs?

Yes, lots of people have added meth injection to the FA20DIT engines.

Manny.mo1 · 09-25-2020, 12:33 AM

Hi, not sure if I missed it, but are there any recommendations for a failsafe for the AEI30-3300 AEM Electronics Water / Methanol Injection Kit V2 (up to 35psi) w/ 1 Gallon Tank - Universal

I'm trying to use the failsafe pn 30-3020 but I can't seem to figure out where to tap into/wire the rest of the failsafe to my GrimmSpeed electronic boost controller solenoid (3port)

thiessentr · 01-02-2021, 04:15 AM

Would running a WMI kit just above wastegate spring pressure to target boost yield maximum safety? The failsafe would be both a low level indicator and flow meter attached to the ebcs. This way, if a failure of some sort occured or the tank couldn't be filled, you could still safely drive the vehicle indefinitely without negatively impacting your AFRs.

Would there be enough of a benefit in terms of performance and anti det to run a kit for such a small range? eg. Spring pressure ~14.5 psi WMI spray 15-20psi.

Does anyone have experience running WMI in extreme cold? In Canada, I regularly see winter Temps ranging from 5f to -40f. Im also worried about pump operation.

blurred · 01-15-2021, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thiessentr

Would running a WMI kit just above wastegate spring pressure to target boost yield maximum safety? The failsafe would be both a low level indicator and flow meter attached to the ebcs. This way, if a failure of some sort occured or the tank couldn't be filled, you could still safely drive the vehicle indefinitely without negatively impacting your AFRs.

Would there be enough of a benefit in terms of performance and anti det to run a kit for such a small range? eg. Spring pressure ~14.5 psi WMI spray 15-20psi.

Does anyone have experience running WMI in extreme cold? In Canada, I regularly see winter Temps ranging from 5f to -40f. Im also worried about pump operation.

Mine ran from about 10psi using 125cc jet using washer fluid. The way it was tuned it didn't matter if it ran out or the jet clogged etc, it wasn't used to make more power through chemical efficiency but as more of a safeguard against worst case conditions (fuel/temps/etc). The car could easily run the power (365whp) on pump gas.

Running -40 washer fluid (the best to use is the Turbo Power brand which is 50% methanol). Of the roughly 50 aem wmi kits my friends and I have used over the past 10+ years we haven't had any failures using in winters down to -15c

thiessentr · 01-18-2021, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blurred

Mine ran from about 10psi using 125cc jet using washer fluid. The way it was tuned it didn't matter if it ran out or the jet clogged etc, it wasn't used to make more power through chemical efficiency but as more of a safeguard against worst case conditions (fuel/temps/etc). The car could easily run the power (365whp) on pump gas.

Running -40 washer fluid (the best to use is the Turbo Power brand which is 50% methanol). Of the roughly 50 aem wmi kits my friends and I have used over the past 10+ years we haven't had any failures using in winters down to -15c

Thanks for the reply. This helps out a bunch

Rootini · 01-27-2021, 05:19 PM

Good info, looking to go meth soon

Gluis · 03-15-2021, 06:59 PM

I bought an HFS-3 system from Jeff Howerton in 2011 (S/N 10444) for my heavily modified 2007 STI. It didn't worked for a while as the cable that goes to the ECU was crimped incorrectly (The wire that goes to injector 1 on the ECU was the wrong color). After troubleshooting that and wiring the correct cable, it worked perfectly for a long time. I don't drive my car often though. When I'm not using it, I usually fire it up once a month, let it get to operating temp, Check several things, among them that the HFS-3 is working then switch the car off and cover it again. A month ago the HFS didn't turned on. Nothing happened in it. I thought it might be a minor problem and decided to check it afterwards. I did it this month. I checked fuses and connectors, measured voltage on proper pins, connection to ground, and swapped the gauge cable for a CAT6 cable to see if the cable was ok, but nothing happened. I also checked for voltage in all pins on the cable going to the gauge and none has voltage. I checked on the controller but nothing happens if the gauge is not working, so I have no clue what the problem could be. I'm out of basic troubleshooting ideas, and would love any suggestion to what might be happening. I barely use the system as I have different maps on my Accesstuner, and just use the high boost with the aquamist map when I'm up to no good (which is not very often).

I will appreciate any help to troubleshoot and fix it.

4eat05 · 04-19-2021, 08:04 AM

Hey all, i might have missed it in the post, but would i need larger injectors for water/meth injection?
Have vf39/sti blue 565cc injectors/walbro 255 and other supporting mods on my ej205 Wrx and about to swap out the old tired vf39 for a new vf34 which should be getting close to the max my injectors can handle.

Would I need larger injectors or is that part of what makes water/meth injection so good?

pcampbell · 07-01-2021, 04:48 PM

You can run more power on the same injectors with water meth.

pcampbell · 08-22-2021, 08:18 AM

Stupid question. Would there be any advantage or point in running ethyl alcohol injection instead of methanol?

tmp042 · 08-22-2021, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcampbell

Stupid question. Would there be any advantage or point in running ethyl alcohol injection instead of methanol?

A quick google shows methanol has a faster evaporation rate than alcohol.

pcampbell · 10-03-2022, 07:38 PM

Random but I finally measured my water meth output at the nozzle.
I tried DO3, 4 and 5 nozzles with my old Snow 40220A pump, which is a 300 psi pump but I understand they turn it down to 200(?) psi from the factory.

So very simple, DO3 was 150ml a minute
DO4 was 200 ml a minute
DO5 was 250 ml a minute.

Honestly I'm not sure what the right size nozzle is. I was getting bogged down definitely with both #5 and also #4 if I recall right. I don't remember the full details of when I had it coming on. I'm using the 3 now but it seems too small on paper...

Any thoughts as to these flow rates?

01-02-2021, 04:15 AM	#316
thiessentr Scooby Newbie Member#: 469678 Join Date: Jun 2017 Chapter/Region: E. Canada Location: Canada Vehicle: 2010 STI hatch Silver	Would running a WMI kit just above wastegate spring pressure to target boost yield maximum safety? The failsafe would be both a low level indicator and flow meter attached to the ebcs. This way, if a failure of some sort occured or the tank couldn't be filled, you could still safely drive the vehicle indefinitely without negatively impacting your AFRs. Would there be enough of a benefit in terms of performance and anti det to run a kit for such a small range? eg. Spring pressure ~14.5 psi WMI spray 15-20psi. Does anyone have experience running WMI in extreme cold? In Canada, I regularly see winter Temps ranging from 5f to -40f. Im also worried about pump operation. Last edited by thiessentr; 01-02-2021 at 01:15 PM.

03-15-2021, 06:59 PM	#320
Gluis Scooby Newbie Member#: 245584 Join Date: Apr 2010 Chapter/Region: International Location: Margarita Island, Venezuela Vehicle: 07 Impreza WRX STI	HFS 3 not working I bought an HFS-3 system from Jeff Howerton in 2011 (S/N 10444) for my heavily modified 2007 STI. It didn't worked for a while as the cable that goes to the ECU was crimped incorrectly (The wire that goes to injector 1 on the ECU was the wrong color). After troubleshooting that and wiring the correct cable, it worked perfectly for a long time. I don't drive my car often though. When I'm not using it, I usually fire it up once a month, let it get to operating temp, Check several things, among them that the HFS-3 is working then switch the car off and cover it again. A month ago the HFS didn't turned on. Nothing happened in it. I thought it might be a minor problem and decided to check it afterwards. I did it this month. I checked fuses and connectors, measured voltage on proper pins, connection to ground, and swapped the gauge cable for a CAT6 cable to see if the cable was ok, but nothing happened. I also checked for voltage in all pins on the cable going to the gauge and none has voltage. I checked on the controller but nothing happens if the gauge is not working, so I have no clue what the problem could be. I'm out of basic troubleshooting ideas, and would love any suggestion to what might be happening. I barely use the system as I have different maps on my Accesstuner, and just use the high boost with the aquamist map when I'm up to no good (which is not very often). I will appreciate any help to troubleshoot and fix it.

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05-30-2020, 12:59 PM	#303
Grantmac Scooby Newbie Member#: 498493 Join Date: Mar 2019	I'm running a single nozzle in the upstream end tank of my TMIC right now with success. I wasn't convinced that I'd get even fluid distribution with the nozzle close to the TB. I may eventually go for a dual nozzle system with each positioned adjacent to the inlet pipes but for now the nozzle is simply positioned between them. I do get a little excess fueling on shifts which is likely residual fluid in the IC but not enough to cause an issue. My system allows me to prime from the driver's seat so I can also use it to combat heat soak in theory although the car obviously doesn't idle that well ingesting fluid so I need to pulse it for a second or two at a time.

05-31-2020, 07:43 AM	#304
pcampbell Scooby Specialist Member#: 437670 Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: VT Vehicle: 2005 2.5 SC OB	Just curious, why not after the intercooler?

06-04-2020, 02:57 AM	#305
Grantmac Scooby Newbie Member#: 498493 Join Date: Mar 2019	I wanted to give the fluid longer to phase change, help improve IC efficiency and also possibly distribute the fluid more evenly. In theory it should do all that. In practice I don't have any way to confirm that it's better than just before the throttle plate.

06-04-2020, 09:51 PM	#308
Homemade WRX Scooby Guru Member#: 33782 Join Date: Mar 2003 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Milton Keynes, UK Vehicle: 96 3MI Racing search FIRST, then PM!!!	And a small nozzle pre-compressor can actually increase mass flow rate but if done incorrectly, it can etch/damage the compressor wheel.

06-05-2020, 07:25 AM	#309
pcampbell Scooby Specialist Member#: 437670 Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: VT Vehicle: 2005 2.5 SC OB	Any guideline for what is too big of a single nozzle? I know devils own makes bigger single nozzles than snow. I’m on a DO5 now and it’s great but with more boost would like to move up to the next size which is a DO7.

06-05-2020, 07:32 AM	#310
murrdogg24 Scooby Guru Member#: 50586 Join Date: Dec 2003 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: Chiraq Vehicle: 64 Impala	back when i had my smc kit, i had the nozzle underneath the tmic outlet directly in front of the throttle body. it seemed to work well for added boost in the higher rpm's, this was on the stock v8 ej207 with the vf37, hitting 25psi.

06-17-2020, 06:08 AM	#313
RakumiAzuri Scooby Newbie Member#: 472102 Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: NOVA Vehicle: 2018 WRX Gunmetal	Has anyone added one of these kits to the 2015-2020 WRX? E85 isn't a, reasonable, option where I live for a few reasons. Were there any issues or unforeseen draw backs?

09-25-2020, 12:33 AM	#315
Manny.mo1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 456257 Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Northern Jersey Vehicle: 2016 WRX Limited World Rally Blue	Hi, not sure if I missed it, but are there any recommendations for a failsafe for the AEI30-3300 AEM Electronics Water / Methanol Injection Kit V2 (up to 35psi) w/ 1 Gallon Tank - Universal I'm trying to use the failsafe pn 30-3020 but I can't seem to figure out where to tap into/wire the rest of the failsafe to my GrimmSpeed electronic boost controller solenoid (3port)

01-27-2021, 05:19 PM	#319
Rootini Scooby Newbie Member#: 521983 Join Date: Jan 2021	Good info, looking to go meth soon

04-19-2021, 08:04 AM	#321
4eat05 Scooby Specialist Member#: 378421 Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: NC Vehicle: 2005 Cobb Stg2+ Wrx Platinum Silver	Hey all, i might have missed it in the post, but would i need larger injectors for water/meth injection? Have vf39/sti blue 565cc injectors/walbro 255 and other supporting mods on my ej205 Wrx and about to swap out the old tired vf39 for a new vf34 which should be getting close to the max my injectors can handle. Would I need larger injectors or is that part of what makes water/meth injection so good?

07-01-2021, 04:48 PM	#322
pcampbell Scooby Specialist Member#: 437670 Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: VT Vehicle: 2005 2.5 SC OB	You can run more power on the same injectors with water meth.

08-22-2021, 08:18 AM	#323
pcampbell Scooby Specialist Member#: 437670 Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: VT Vehicle: 2005 2.5 SC OB	Stupid question. Would there be any advantage or point in running ethyl alcohol injection instead of methanol?

10-03-2022, 07:38 PM	#325
pcampbell Scooby Specialist Member#: 437670 Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: VT Vehicle: 2005 2.5 SC OB	Random but I finally measured my water meth output at the nozzle. I tried DO3, 4 and 5 nozzles with my old Snow 40220A pump, which is a 300 psi pump but I understand they turn it down to 200(?) psi from the factory. So very simple, DO3 was 150ml a minute DO4 was 200 ml a minute DO5 was 250 ml a minute. Honestly I'm not sure what the right size nozzle is. I was getting bogged down definitely with both #5 and also #4 if I recall right. I don't remember the full details of when I had it coming on. I'm using the 3 now but it seems too small on paper... Any thoughts as to these flow rates?