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Old 04-16-2007, 04:59 PM   #176
brendan_mac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarpauld View Post
Don't forget the up/downpipe

Here's the lowdown, I had the uppipe/downpipe/catback on before, went up to RR and got a shelf mapped EcuTeK, had fun with that, few months later I decided I wanted some sound effects but not a bov, so I went ahead and got an intake and a light tune for it to boot... the two curves you see on the first plot are with and without the light tune (both had intake on)... now it's been over a year since, same mods, just fine tuning as Picard put it
Oh, i wasn't forgetting the UP/DP, but my plot is above yours on page 7 with UP/DP and LT. I think the Intake is the biggest thing that requires proper tuning, because you went up 13.5 hp just from a custom tune. Your previous numbers weren't TOO much higher than mine. mind you, look at the difference the cat-back makes in top-end: the torque curve doesn't drop nearly as bad as it used to.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:57 PM   #177
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^ah gotcha, yeah the tuning made a big difference... and you should get yourself a nice catback
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:50 PM   #178
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nice numbers amarpauld!
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Old 04-17-2007, 01:05 PM   #179
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Nice Paul! I have been wondering what my car would dyno since I put on the catless DP.
Any feedback on what the intake was giving you?
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Old 04-17-2007, 01:42 PM   #180
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^Can't really say since I had the intake on for all those plots, only thing that changed was going from shelf map--> light tune-->...more tuned?

So, obviously it was pat's tuning that made the biggest difference, the intake might've done a little bit, but not much I suspect since I don't exactly have big power mods that could 'better' take advantage of it...(?)

Besides, the intake was more of a 'fun mod' then anything
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Old 04-17-2007, 01:52 PM   #181
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I think when we did the intake alone peak gains were about 8-10WHP but that was for a very small section. 3-5WHP gains were seen through much of the power band (it was quote awhile ago so not sure if that is right).
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:15 PM   #182
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you will be lucky if an intake nets you any gains at all WITHOUT tuning. this is just because of the way it affects the cars. Certain magazines that have "dyno comparisons" of intakes before and after dont let the car learn to that intake (and hence they run lean for the pull) and thus net the "huge gains" of 3-5hp (which you would gain anyways if you leaned it out the same amount with the stock intake). Also, 90***37;, no, make that 95%, of the intakes out there are "hot air intakes" despite all the body cladding attempts to make them "cold air intakes". If you have one that truly runs the same Air Fuel as the stocker, and increases flow, and isn't a hot air intake, then yes, you can have gains without tuning. However there are only 2 or 3 on the market that do that. The gains will all be less than 5% without tuning, more like 3% if that.

If you data log the air temp on the intake, you will see clearly that some intakes are "hot air" intakes. On a stock tune the hot air intake can zap a lot ofnpower as the stock ECu starts to pull timing when it sees 40C on the MAF (if you think that is high, check the temps that the MAF thinks its seeing out on a certain "big" intake while you sit at a stop light. It would make you shudder).

But if you are maxing the MAF then an intake will instantly increase your output safely. Most people get intakes because they are maxing out the MAF, or have "completed" their mods and want every last bit out of it, or want a true cold air intake. Of course, those are the functional reasons. Normally, its a "low cost" item which can produce gains, if tuned for. I dunno. I once bought one for my RS because I didn't know what else I could buy for $350 that made me feel good :-)

Last edited by patr; 04-18-2007 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:57 PM   #183
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The only difference between plots 56 and 67/68 is an APS cold air intake, and tuning. It was installed for more MAF headroom. Sounds good too.

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Old 04-18-2007, 12:47 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcat View Post
The only difference between plots 56 and 67/68 is an APS cold air intake, and tuning. It was installed for more MAF headroom. Sounds good too.
Yes but... you are certainly flowing quite a bit more air than Amar and me (I mean that in a good way ). I imagine merely bolting a true APS CAI onto my setup and tuning would AT BEST see the 3-5% gain, because I'm running into back-pressure up in the rev range.

What I am interested in, is the way amar's previous plot was only 3-4 whp more than mine, but how much more pat was able to get out of it with the CT.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:57 AM   #185
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Interesting. I remember reading that most Cold/Hot Air intakes are good for little for lightly tuned cars. And really you shouldn't bother unless your running 300+ on a WRX.
I'm all for the noise though, I mean I have a GFB 50/50 bov for that though...lol. Oddly enough I haven't run into issues with it.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:12 PM   #186
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my slow ass wrx..

[IMG]http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/Kichoman/PIR***37;2007/Dynograph.jpg[/IMG]

??.. wonder why it's a link.. oh well..

ps: there is a typo.. should be a vf30..
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:56 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIMUTAKU View Post
ps: there is a typo.. should be a vf30..
Re-hosted it for ya...

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Old 04-22-2007, 09:01 PM   #188
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cool thx!
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:00 PM   #189
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Click the link to get to a little montage of my car on the Dyno.
http://www.rocketrally.com/patrickri...m/videos/dyno/
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:45 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tora View Post
Click the link to get to a little montage of my car on the Dyno.
http://www.rocketrally.com/patrickri...m/videos/dyno/
The hour's approaching to give it your best,
and you've got to reach your prime
That's when you need to put yourself to the test,
and show us a passage of time

We're gonna need a montage! MONTAGE!
Ooh, it takes a montage! MONTAGE!

Show a lot of things happening at once,
remind everyone of what's going on!
And with every shot show a little improvement,
to show it all would take too long!

That's called a montage! MONTAGE!
Ooh, we want a montage! MONTAGE!

In anything that we want to go,
from just a beginner to a pro
We need a montage! MONTAGE!
Even Rocky had a montage! MONTAGE!

MONTAGE!

MONTAGE!

Anything that we want to go,
from just a beginner to a pro
We need a montage! MONTAGE!
Ooh, it takes a montage! MONTAGE!

Always fade out in a montage
If you fade out it seems like more time has a passed in a montage
Montage
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Old 04-25-2007, 03:29 PM   #191
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That's exactly what I was thinking when I posted that.
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Old 04-29-2007, 07:19 PM   #192
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Hey just a quick question! Please note I am very new to this stuff so please be nice!

Anyways, when a car is on the dyno do the fans run at the same speed the entire time through a pull?

Or do they increase in speed to try and simulate real world/street conditions?

I know they would never be able to generate 100+mph worth of air flow but wouldn't the lack of "ram air" really affect things?

I remember watching AMA superbike racing and the comentators were saying that the bikes HP would increase like 20hp at top speed because of the ram air effect on the engine...

Wouldn't this also apply to cars? Wouldn't a car be getting way more air into it on the street than on the dyno?

Thanks,

Jay
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Old 04-29-2007, 11:41 PM   #193
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its way more complicated than that, but in a nutshell

these are TURBO cars, there is NO ram air effect. The only thing that changs with any significnce is ambient air temp and intercoooler breathing (although there are a few soobs out there with NACA turbo inlets those guys know better).

Furthermore, the majority of the cars are MAF based cars, the total air in gets measured, and tuned for, irrespective of whether its forced in or not.

but to answer, the fans do have speed adjustment, but we've figured out the 'sweet spots' for most cars

the intercooler fanning simulates realistic airflow on the intercooler for approx 100 km/h. This is not a "guess" - you can calculate the cross section and do the math. It is also not derived from math but actual emprical data: the car will run the exact same ignition timing on the street at reasonable temps (i.e. 25C) in 3rd/4th as it will on the dyno (or more i.e. it can get better, not worse, on the street). the fans run fixed during a pull for a number or reasons but primarily #1 is you always want as much fanning as you can get, but not too much, and variable rates muck up other things like steady state, gear tests, etc. Finally, as most people DO NOT KNOW, the subaru actually goes "negative" in airflow at certain high speeds. You can watch the detonation jack right up at high speed as the air is actually going over the scoop and not even entering it.

we also run the rad fans and keep the engine temps in check

we also run the heat extraction fans ( you dont see in the video but they are there )

all the pulls we 'normalize' the intake air temp (as measured by the MAF) so that for a given car the pulls are consistent, and we also use an ambient intake air temp sensor which sits beside the airbox inlet.

we can hold a car at 4500 RPM for a while, because we have EXTRACTION FANS which you dont see in the video moving hot air out of the room. This is totally seperate from exhaust extraction, this is just heat extraction. There are very, very, very few dynos around where you can actually hold a car at high RPM on boost.

All of the above gives you the best simulation for a road tune. The big problem is actually "over fanning" where you can run more timing but it dets on the street. Through experimentation the setup is pretty accurate.

And if you did want ram air you could just put the blower on the intake, and you would get nice unrealistic dyno numbers.
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Old 04-29-2007, 11:55 PM   #194
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^^ Cool thanks!
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:56 PM   #195
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Interesting. Around what speed does it goes negative in airflow??? Does this have to do with aerodynamics design problem at the front of the car??
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:15 PM   #196
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around 165 it starts to decrease
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:46 PM   #197
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how do subarus that race get around that problem? Do they just alter the aerodynamics of the front?
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:55 AM   #198
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I just had mine done on Monday at RR but my torque #'s are low not sure if the heat had something to do with it. I have a 07 STi Ltd with SPT intake, Cobb ap v2, and Cobb Catted DP with SPT 3" catback exhaust. I just did a track day at mission a couple of weeks ago and I think my clutch was slipping a little, could this be why? Or should I get an oil catch can? Maybe some oil getting by? I was getting some major flutter and weird surges but a protune deffently helped. I would highly recommend it to any 07STi owners out there.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:44 PM   #199
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For the above chart, the BASELINE is the COBB tune. The others are ours. We would normally see greater increases. Part of the reason would be the catted DP, some blow-by could also gum thing up a bit. Plugs and injectors down the road will also make a difference.

For those that are doing track days, especially with sticky tires and good suspension I would STRONGLY recommend getting a catchcan and keeping a very good eye on your oil as these cars get a LOT of blow-by.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:39 PM   #200
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couple of comments, the after torque is not that low compared to other similar cars (post custom tune) with similar setups, its normally in the 270 range on our dyno, but yes it was hot. Like Jamie said, the blue line is the cobb stg 2 map. You can see the boost oscillations in the torque curve :-) The dyno is really used as a tool to compare before and after, so in that respect all is well.

FYI, if you go to a track, the catch can thing is really important, as is having the 'right' amount of oil. The blow by is not really blow by, its normally oil surging into the heads when pulling Gs then getting sucked into the intake. It looks like blow by :-) This is real, very real if you have stickies, suspension, or fast car, especially if you combine all three. Just be careful. Guys that install the "hawt JDM catch can" on the crank vent only never address this problem... and too much oil makes it worse. Too little drops the pressure on corners. You want it (normally without a dented can) probably just below halfway for a "normal" car without a baffled sump, lower as power+grip goes up if you dont baffle.
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