Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday February 6, 2023
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Water/Methanol Injection, Nitrous & Intercooler Cooling

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-14-2007, 12:42 AM   #126
jblaine
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8512
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 WRX chassis...
stage-infinity.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by siegelracing View Post
Peak power on gasoline "near" 11:1 AFR = 0.75 Lambda
Near is pretty vague

Peak power, with knock removed from the equation, is far from 11:1 on any 93 octane I've used.

Easily tested with 93 octane and a boost cap at 10psi
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
jblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 06-25-2007, 11:38 AM   #127
I'm Slow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 102748
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tampa,Fl
Vehicle:
HTA 35r-Gadiel tune

Default

subscribed
I'm Slow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2007, 12:06 AM   #128
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
denatured alk works 100***37; fine and is no worse for your car/system than methanol is.
You dont get the same effect that you would on meth, however the difference is pretty small and denatured will still yeild huge gains.
I ran 50/50 distilled water/denatured alk in my alk cars (and will be doing the same again in this one once I hook it up) and it was awesome. 4+ degrees of timing, 12.5-1 a/f and 23lbs of boost on the stock STI turbo.
no knock, ever.
Dave,

I like the last 2 sentances of this post. This is pretty much the same tune setup I am running on my stock block EJ205. I have been through UTEC, (on UTEC I was running on 25+lbs of boost.) and now am on OpenECU. My compression is still 140+ across all cylinders,(FWIW), and just went over 50K miles (30,000+ of it on water/meth). Yes you must take some fuel out to make the power and have the AFR's you want, and the AFR's you need to make power, granted, the AFR's for meth at 100% mabye below 6:1, but if you can tune, or know someone who can tune, they or you can make it right in the end. All I can say is I am a true believer of the capabilities of Water/Meth with the right tuner, and owner/driver. I hope I don't alienate myself from my own/and Dave's thread,

(FlameSuit ON)

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2007, 05:16 PM   #129
dangle
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 149172
Join Date: May 2007
Location: seattle washington
Vehicle:
2006 impreza sti
white

Default just got car tuned

i just tuned my car and my check engine flashes when im at full boost. i was told that its dectecting det. will a meth kit with just running 100 percent water help lower det without having to get the whole car retuned?
dangle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 12:53 PM   #130
bulwnkl
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 41070
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Vehicle:
2005 Black Tiger
(Black Turbo Baja)

Default

At the risk of being completely ignored as some sort of heretic:

What about using alcohol and/or water injection to increase mpg? I have a Baja turbo that I intend to leave stock. I'd be interested in using a system like this to ALWAYS run A/F ratios at naturally-aspirated levels to improve mpg, especially when pulling our boat around (which makes low boost all the time). Is this even a viable consideration?
bulwnkl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 05:37 PM   #131
Blennophobic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25886
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ottawa area
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Rally Blue
- sold, waiting for 2015s

Default

Makes perfect sense... however you will need some type of engine management to lean out your A/F ratios and advance timing to take advantage of the W/A injection. I also highly recommend a TBE with a high-flow cat which helps a lot with cruising mileage and allows you to make the most of your new tune.
Blennophobic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 12:36 AM   #132
WRXRallyBlue
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48831
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno
Vehicle:
2002 Protuned Wagon
Bugeyes Forever

Default

Yeah, but the gas you take out is now replaced with alc/h20. If you were to go w/i it would make financial sense because water is cheaper than gas. Not sure about alky.
WRXRallyBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2007, 12:50 PM   #133
dsnuts02
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 128003
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs
Vehicle:
2005 STI
WR Blue

Default E-85 instead

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulwnkl View Post
At the risk of being completely ignored as some sort of heretic:

What about using alcohol and/or water injection to increase mpg? I have a Baja turbo that I intend to leave stock. I'd be interested in using a system like this to ALWAYS run A/F ratios at naturally-aspirated levels to improve mpg, especially when pulling our boat around (which makes low boost all the time). Is this even a viable consideration?
Get an E-85 tune if your going to spend money on met inj. it burns cleaner, and cooler. Oh yeah, CHEEPER!
dsnuts02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2007, 01:07 PM   #134
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsnuts02 View Post
Get an E-85 tune if your going to spend money on met inj. it burns cleaner, and cooler. Oh yeah, CHEEPER!
He said he wanted to increase gas mileage NOT drop it thru the floor....

Expect ~30***37; lower MPG using E85 even with a proper tune.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2007, 11:30 PM   #135
Irishman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 29933
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Silver/Silver

Default

Plus factor in how much you would have to invest in a kit and tune. It will take you quite awhile to make up the difference in gas money.
Irishman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2007, 06:21 PM   #136
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Updated the original post on pg. 1. Added some octane info, and a octane calculator/converter.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 12:39 AM   #137
Smoke Show
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25129
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Fort Nelson
Vehicle:
2003 wrx stg4++
kills:4trny,mtr,trbo,clth

Default

i'm like way behind on all of this since i blew up my car, but its going back together nicely. a guy came into work and was showing me his roush truck asking me to start bringing this stuff in.... i took his info combined with this absolutly incredible write up and i am 100***37; sold... (damn 91 if that octane).

i just wanted to say thank you in a long sorta way.
Smoke Show is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 04:58 PM   #138
digitalseance
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 104400
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: SouthSide Jax, FL
Vehicle:
169k mile race car
Black

Default

Ok, I've read all 6 pages and it's sorta starting to run together in my head (slow day at work).

Here's my plan (please advise). I've got an '02 wrx with intake, uppipe, txs 3.5" tbe with 4" dp, txs tmic, utec, and protune from P&L on 93. Since the car has now be pulled from the street, my plan is to switch to running 100oct all the time and since WI is allowed in my solo2 category, I think i'd like to add it. I'm liking the 50/50 information that I've read so far.

My question is, with running the stock block and stock TD04 turbo (per solo2 rules), by getting the car retuned and adding the 50/50 mix injection will it be safe to start running the injection point at like 2psi? Also, is it worth adding this if I'm going to be running such a high octane anyway? I will most likely add a switch to turn off the AI/WI and revert to my 93 map when pulling the car on and off the trailer as well as the rare times of street usage.


TIA (*subscribed )
digitalseance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 02:56 PM   #139
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by siegelracing View Post
Stoich on gasoline = 1 Lambda = 14.65:1 AFR
Peak power on gasoline "near" 11:1 AFR = 0.75 Lambda
Stoich on methanol = 1 lambda = 6.47:1 (yes six and half)
Peak power on methanol = 0.8 lambda = 5.2:1 AFR (yes, vehicles that run straight methanol run in the FIVE to ONE Air to Fuel Ratio at WOT)
So adding 100% methanol to gasoline = moving from 11:1 AFR toward 5.2:1 AFR = getting richer.
what a useless bunch of information.

scott, what does your wideband "say" is the "afr" when you throw it on a 100% methanol-powered car idling at stoich fueling?

answer carefully.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 03:10 PM   #140
jblaine
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8512
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 WRX chassis...
stage-infinity.com

Default

I want to, but I can't laugh, because I just wrapped my head around all of this a few months ago finally.

Then again, I don't tune other peoples' cars, so maybe I can laugh.
jblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 10:38 PM   #141
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle View Post
i just tuned my car and my check engine flashes when im at full boost. i was told that its dectecting det. will a meth kit with just running 100 percent water help lower det without having to get the whole car retuned?
First, who did the tuning?
Next, how is you car setup?
Last, using meth as a band-aid for a crappy tune will only cause more problems or damage. Get the tune fixed, then when you want to step up to more power and a more advanced tune, then go water/meth. Don't do it to try to fix a problem. Your car should be at it's best shape and tuning before you try to go to water/meth. Ultimately you still have to have someone tune for water/meth, and they have to know what they are doing. If they can't tune to just pump gas, then go somewhere else.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 11:42 PM   #142
fatpat
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 152817
Join Date: Jul 2007
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: South of Heaven Fl.
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
White

Default

For those of you who have done a true back-to-back test of 100% water injection vs the other blends, what do you see with your air fuel readings? I'm only interested in the cooling agent of water and not interested in the alk or meth blends. As a direct comparison, if your car is tuned for a target 11.5:1 AFR with regular old 93 octane and you sprayed only water, would you see big differences in the AFR with your existing tune? Would even more unburned fuel exit the combustion chamber since the water (steam at this point I suppose) is absorbing and dispersing some of the heat? My goal is a more efficient burn and reducing EGTs along with detonation prevention. I just had my car on the dyno with a PDX email tune and I'm starting at 10.4:1 and jump quickly to 9.7-9.8:1 all the way to redline. I will be tuning the car in a week or two to something more in the low 11's:1 range and wouldn't mind adding water injection in the near future. Thanks in advance.

Wow, long post.
fatpat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2007, 05:17 PM   #143
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
what a useless bunch of information.

scott, what does your wideband "say" is the "afr" when you throw it on a 100% methanol-powered car idling at stoich fueling?

answer carefully.
If it is set for gasoline equivalence then 1.0 lambda or 14.7 AFR
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2007, 04:45 PM   #144
JRODSTI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 165905
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Salem, OR
Vehicle:
2005 WRX STI
Black

Default

I Have A 05 STI With The DDS3 Water/Methanol Injection System. And I noticed on the display Gage that The Flow Level That the Color Changed From Blue to Red? What does that mean
JRODSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 10:08 AM   #145
joekerk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 155250
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default

[quote=ka mano;17100867]Water only vs. 50/50

Hi , i seem that the peak power had move to a bit higher rpm. is it because of the meth ? how to do it this way
joekerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 01:37 PM   #146
hottwrx02
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 143251
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
07 black unicorn
GT35r JRTuned STi

Default

hey everyone im planing on running the SMC kit on my 07 sti. now is this really a good mod and safe to do? from what i have read it seems safe but just wanted to make sure. i plan on getting my tune next month with this kit so far mods that i have are...

Txs TBE
K&n intake
cobb APv2
fule pump
DW 750cc
Perrin EBCS
i also plan on adding a FMIC

any advice would be great
hottwrx02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 12:48 AM   #147
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hottwrx02 View Post
hey everyone im planing on running the SMC kit on my 07 sti. now is this really a good mod and safe to do? from what i have read it seems safe but just wanted to make sure. i plan on getting my tune next month with this kit so far mods that i have are...

Txs TBE
K&n intake
cobb APv2
fule pump
DW 750cc
Perrin EBCS
i also plan on adding a FMIC

any advice would be great

Water/Meth is a good mod with a high quality tune. If you are not sure of your tuner, or don't have access to tuning, I wouldn't do it. You need to have a good tune to run high boost, high timing, with just pump gas. With water/meth you can cause the same damage quicker if not tuned right. To rich can damage the engine via bore wash, and loss of water/meth without a failsafe, can cause a lean condition, quickly! Without proper tuning, you could just run around with a lean condition, due to improper fueling. Is the EBCS installed yet? If it isn't I recommend doing before your tune. Your boost curves will completely change when you put that on. If you tune, and then put on the EBCS it will skew all the boost values from you tune.
In the end pump gas or water/meth, it all revolves around how good your tuning is.

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2008, 05:32 AM   #148
bucket7788
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124263
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Now with DB Super 16g and WI!
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
RomRaider + UTEC Tuned

Default

[quote=joekerk;20977465]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka mano View Post
Water only vs. 50/50

Hi , i seem that the peak power had move to a bit higher rpm. is it because of the meth ? how to do it this way

I find this perplexing as well. Max TQ has moved approk 2k higher for the 2nd curve. I would hope that it was possible to incorporate the best parts of both graphs with proper tuning.

Is it possible that too much 50/50 is being injected in the lower RPM areas? It looks like about 50 TQ are being lost at about 4200 RPM.

Buck
bucket7788 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2008, 07:28 AM   #149
STiEric
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 116499
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Fayetteville NC
Vehicle:
2005 WRX STi
Black when clean

Default

Dose anyone have any idea if it ok to put the nozzle in front of a bend in the boost tube. From what I undersand its best to have it 6-8 inches away from the TP and my set up and a bend right before it enters the TB. Any help or insite would on this would be great
STiEric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2008, 07:12 PM   #150
DonkeyPunch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 18987
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
2014 Forester
Dark Grey Metallic

Default

I would suppose that putting it before a 90 deg bend or greater radius that it could mess up atomization a little due to decreased air velocity caused by the bend. Although I suppose it could also increase turbulence, and maybe be good for atomization? I am not sure. Anyone else want to chime in on this. I use a TMIC, so it is right before the TB. I have also heard 6-8 inches if possible, but I suppose only a few inches before the TB wouldn't hurt. Is there a reason you physically can't put it 6-8" from the TB or closer?

DP
DonkeyPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
water / methanol injection kit -new or used blazin sti Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 3 05-27-2006 09:01 PM
Water/Methanol Injection or Race Fuel or Both ejh25 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 7 03-28-2005 07:35 PM
Derek Devises Water/Methanol Injection mistaboosta Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 2 11-01-2004 06:52 PM
Derek Devises Water/Methanol Injection mistaboosta Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 0 11-01-2004 05:51 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2023 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.