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12-23-2007, 04:26 AM | #1 |
Former Vendor
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Indepth study of different types of WAI systems
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Last edited by Aquamist; 01-01-2008 at 09:27 AM. |
12-23-2007, 04:26 AM | #2 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:47 AM. |
12-23-2007, 08:51 AM | #3 | |
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Richard,
Quote:
Next for #4: 4) Pulsing due to demand switch ~20psi ripple. (some system by-pass this switch, but risking system pressure beyond design limits). May require further explanation Its important to point out that some of us have the ability to leave the demand swith on and yet be able to keep the max pressure just below the pulsing point of the pump. Customers should atleast be aware that there are different options for eliminating this issue. Some are more safe than others. My next question is concerning the checkvalve. Not all progressive kits use a checkvalve (we have a solenoid option for example) and the manufactures of PWM kits that use a checkvalve use a 15-20 PSI, not 30. Would it not be fair to use 15-20 instead of 30? Last for now, its probably fair that the customers are aware that some US manufacturers can reference RPM, some can do in a 2D and 3D MAP (Im refering to 2D and 3D as the abilitity to take 2 or 3 inputs and create a single progressive output based on those settings). So my last question, does your chart only apply to those that running a single boost input using a 30 PSI checkvalve? Or does it apply to every progressive kit on the market. Thanks in advance for your answer. David Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 08:58 AM. |
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12-23-2007, 11:32 AM | #4 |
Former Vendor
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edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:48 AM. |
12-23-2007, 12:24 PM | #5 | ||
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Ok, thanks. I then have a couple of comments. I will quote seperately the points I want to make.
Quote:
I want to piont out that there are progressive companies on the market that can reference things other than boost, such as RPM, etc. A step further, Others can inject based on 2 or 3 inputs. The only reason I bring this up, I want to make sure that while some of your test data may be valid, your test is not conclusive of every single "progressive pump system" on the market. Customers have choices and configurations that they can make based on manufacturer. I will also address other issues and questions at a later time. I dont mind this debate as long as you keep it professional I will do the same. I think if all of us give input to this thread, the customer can have a good understanding of how current systems work and can make a good decision on what they want. David Quote:
Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 04:49 PM. |
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12-23-2007, 01:47 PM | #6 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:48 AM. |
12-23-2007, 01:58 PM | #7 | ||
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
If you set the Max dutycyle to 75% in the software and lets say for example you are running a 0-5V input, at 5V 75% of the current will be sent to the valve, it will scale 75% dutycycle over the entire 0-5V or max boost.. This is far different from taking a map sensor signal and only running it from 0-3.75 volts to prevent pulsing. Please be clear about that when you do your demo. Quote:
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12-23-2007, 03:00 PM | #8 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:48 AM. |
12-23-2007, 03:27 PM | #9 | |
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
This improves the range, it is not at the expense of it. I already explained this, let me make it more clear. lets assume for the sake of argument that the pump will pulse at exacltly 150. We know there is a variance, just for example. Regular way, pump turns off at 150, does not turn back on until 80 psi. Hits 150 again does not turn on until 80 psi. Now with our program option, you can program it send enough current to pump at max so it never hits the turn off point, maybe it will hit around 145 or 147 PSI. With this way, it never pulses, the pump responds only to input from the controller. You are improving the range as it no longer pulses. you also have your entire input range 0-5V our min/max boost to work with. Maybe you can be more clear so I can understand how our option limits the range, because I dont see it. David Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 03:36 PM. |
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12-23-2007, 03:38 PM | #10 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:51 AM. |
12-23-2007, 03:43 PM | #11 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
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edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:49 AM. |
12-23-2007, 04:48 PM | #12 | |
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
The 150 psi pumps according to shurflo have a window of 1.38 to 2.07 bar or 20-30 PSI. |
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12-23-2007, 04:51 PM | #13 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Edited.
Richard, I want to have an answer to this, to be clear. Do you believe that our option of scaling the dutycycle to prevent pump pulsing will limit the dynamic range further than using the system at 100% dutycycle and allowing the bypass switch to function. I need a clear answer before I continue. This is an important issue to me. |
12-23-2007, 05:08 PM | #14 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:49 AM. |
12-23-2007, 05:36 PM | #15 | |
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
Again, follow me, its as simple as this. If you set the max dutycycle so that the water pressure is LESS than the amount of pressure that it takes to make the demand switch to activate, the demand switch will never activate. In effect the electronics prevent the demand switch from ever activating because it does not allow enough current to get to the pump to trip the switch, and then scales the current to match the max input. Let me know if thats more clear and based on what I said, I need an answer of whether you think this will or will not affect the range as you indicated earlier that it would.. Very important to me. Once we get this cleared up, we can move on. Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 05:52 PM. |
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12-23-2007, 05:53 PM | #16 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:49 AM. |
12-23-2007, 06:15 PM | #17 | |
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
Having said that, you made a claim earlier that the Dynamic range will be affected and that is not a correct statement. If the pump pulses at 149 PSI and turns back on at 120 PSI, that is not a true "range". Or atleast its not a "useable" range. obviously if the pump is pulsing between 120 and 149, you are not able to controll it with a controller, how can you consider that to be part of the range? Having said that, what would you rather have up to 120 PSI with NO pulsing or upto 150 PSI where it pulses between 120 and 150? In reality the last 30 PSI is not really part of your range as you cant control it. Again, I am using 30 PSI as the example because you were assuming the customer is running 30 PSI. Now to clarify what I just said, I am referring to the DYNAMIC range of a system as the actual range where you can control the flow. Here is what I mean by Range, please read my example below. Now consider this, if on a M5 the pump starts pulsing at 70% dutycycle (that percent is not the actual number, but use it for example). Lets say the MIN is at 1 and the Max is at 10. Anytime you are at or above 7 PSI the pump will be maxed out. Using our setup with vari-cool , your dynamic range will be improved because the pump will continue to increase flow all the way until 10 PSI. If you dont dis-agree with what I say, we can move on. Also, I want to point out that once we have an agreement, I'm willing to edit my posts into 1 to clean up this thread. I have no interest in taking this thread off topic or to dwell too long on one issue. I simply want all the facts to be present for those that read this. David Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 06:39 PM. |
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12-23-2007, 06:46 PM | #18 |
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12-23-2007, 07:05 PM | #19 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:50 AM. |
12-23-2007, 07:16 PM | #20 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:49 AM. |
12-23-2007, 07:18 PM | #21 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
I cant give you data today on all of the nozzles you have listed, however I can verify that our M5 nozzle is almost exactly as you put from 200 to 400 CC/M on our Vari-Cool kits that are being sold today, on the test I did today the top end was about 380 CC. Once we get further into this thread, I will be posting some "alternative" configurations that you have not listed in your choices above. However that is a topic for a different day. I will clarify one more thing:
my idea of dynamic range is USEABLE RANGE I dont agree that you would need a huge range on the system. You do have different nozzle sizes, etc. I believe that a good progressive kit should be able to give you enough of a range that prevents you from having too much flow down low and allow you have to have enough up top without having too much. Atomization down low should be good as well. In addition, you should be able to configure the system to customize for your particular setup. The electronic bypass that we refer to, is one such example. Tenatively I can agaree that at the very least your M5 example is accurate. David |
12-23-2007, 07:23 PM | #22 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:50 AM. |
12-23-2007, 07:26 PM | #23 | ||
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
Quote:
Are you saying a M2 can only hit a max of 180 psi and a m5 can only hit a max of 135 psi . Please clarify, I need to understand if that is what you mean by this. I have other questions about your post, but need this clear up first. Also, I assume you mean with the pump bypassed, for the M2,etc. David Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 07:33 PM. |
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12-23-2007, 07:33 PM | #24 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 110029
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sussex, England
Vehicle:2004 Citroen Picasso Silver |
edited
Last edited by Aquamist; 12-24-2007 at 11:49 AM. |
12-23-2007, 07:48 PM | #25 | |||
Former Vendor
Member#: 67024
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:2009 BMW 135 I space grey |
Quote:
If you want, I will be glad to take some videos. I dont know if I have time tomorrow, however I can assure you that the M5 can hit over 300 PSI, the M2 can hit over 400. You can see how I am getting mixed signals here on one hand: Quote:
Quote:
How can they run it at 300 PSI if your chart is accurate? Further more, I dont know any company that advertises 300 PSI. Im just very suprised you would publish data that you have not verified and dont know exactly what they meant by it. I have a glyceryn filled gauge that I am 100% sure is very accurate. If I post videos supporting what said, will you remove your post? I think its wrong to imply that a 150 psi shurflo pump is such a woos bag that it can only produce 135 PSI when mated with a M5. Let me know and I will post them. I need time to take them so I can be a few days. Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 08:02 PM. |
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