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Old 10-27-2019, 01:54 PM   #4226
thechickencow
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That’s interesting the interior is that much warmer than outside when it’s cold like this. Would not have guessed that.
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Old 10-27-2019, 02:02 PM   #4227
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Last filled up the Italian-made-in-Canada PHEV minivan on August 17. Filled up again last night at just under 1/2 tank, to get rid of the annoying Fuel and Oil Refresh Mode forced engine-running.
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Old 10-27-2019, 02:06 PM   #4228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thechickencow View Post
That’s interesting the interior is that much warmer than outside when it’s cold like this. Would not have guessed that.

It’s drifted down to 30 degrees now as there’s not much UV getting through the whiteness overhead.

I can’t find or didn’t take a screenshot of it, but this summer on a sub-90 degree day the interior got up to something like 118F. That roof really does lead to the interior getting hot—not a huge deal what with being able to turn on the climate remotely but still something.
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Old 10-27-2019, 04:08 PM   #4229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post


Last filled up the Italian-made-in-Canada PHEV minivan on August 17. Filled up again last night at just under 1/2 tank, to get rid of the annoying Fuel and Oil Refresh Mode forced engine-running.


That’s a really good ratio.
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Old 10-27-2019, 04:11 PM   #4230
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Originally Posted by thechickencow View Post
That’s a really good ratio.

It really shows how much a ~30 mile EV range can add to the equation, at least in the setting where one doesn’t worry at all about running that range completely out. (A 30 mile range pure BEV wouldn’t be nearly as useful, of course.)
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Old 10-27-2019, 09:48 PM   #4231
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On energy efficiency in wintry conditions and the psychology of having a BEV.



Despite having swapped the cars' positions such that the Land Cruiser would be warm inside the garage I elected to take the Tesla to get some takeout tonight. The psychological effect for those a bit cheap at heart is to blame: it's just so much cheaper to drive it. I've noted the same thing over the years when we've had vehicles much cheaper than their peers: with the Prius (vs. the Fit), the RAV4 EV (vs. the Land Cruiser) and the PacHy (versus the Land Cruiser similarly).

So I fired up the climate control, after waiting for a few minutes for the car to connect–LTE reception was apparently bad in these stormy conditions. After only losing about 3 miles over the half day to vampire drain heating the interior up took 11 miles worth of range in and of itself!

Then there was the drive.

Conditions were bad: wet roads, limited visibility (turn your lights on, stoners!), and saturated air as it was snowing. I had to use the hot defroster (there's also a cool defroster in Tesla-land) the whole time on the way to the restaurant. The 10.5 miles took 20 miles of nominal range! To be more precise, the efficiency on this leg was 445 Wh/mile, again as compared to the 262 Wh/mile lifetime efficiency that I've seen from it. This is 70% worse than typical efficiency, on basically flat terrain.

The drive back was more efficient because I didn't have to use the defroster, but the point stands that conditions such as those in this snowstorm really kill the efficiency of EVs. (They'd affect gas cars much less--the rolling resistance changes would be there, sure, but as gas cars use otherwise wasted heat for their heating needs…) Between the lower efficiency and the energy use of pre-heating the interior the 21 mile round trip used a total of 44 miles of nominal range.
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Old 10-27-2019, 09:57 PM   #4232
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What’s the cost per mile for that 44mi (effective) trip?

The reason I’m asking is I’m eyeing up something in the future. The eF150 would be one possibility but I’m trying to figure the economics out.

I am not really wanting to be full ev and charging mid trip so a phev is more interesting to me.

Last edited by thechickencow; 10-27-2019 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:10 PM   #4233
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What’s the cost per mile for that 44mi trip?
Those "44 miles" cost about $1.08 at winter Xcel rates if the charger on the car is 90% efficient.

In comparison, driving 22 actual miles on $2.75/gal regular gas would have cost $4.03 at 15 MPG, $2.42 at 25 MPG, $1.73 at 35 MPG, $1.21 at 50 MPG. If I'd used my usual 262 Wh/mile in the Tesla 22 actual miles charged at 90% efficiency would have been all of $0.59.
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:12 PM   #4234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Those "44 miles" cost about $1.08 at winter Xcel rates if the charger on the car is 90% efficient.



In comparison, driving 22 actual miles on $2.75/gal regular gas would have cost $4.03 at 15 MPG, $2.42 at 25 MPG, $1.73 at 35 MPG, $1.21 at 50 MPG. If I'd used my usual 262 Wh/mile in the Tesla 22 actual miles charged at 90% efficiency would have been all of $0.59.


Thanks. Would similar costs apply to ev miles in the van?
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:17 PM   #4235
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Originally Posted by thechickencow View Post
Thanks. Would similar costs apply to ev miles in the van?
The van uses about 40% more electricity per distance traveled under similar testing conditions: https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?...40385&id=40830

So the van would have cost about $1.50*, cheaper than a 35 MPG vehicle but more expensive than a hypothetical Prius. Much cheaper than any other van for sure!





* in 26 degree weather it probably would have kicked the gas engine on to heat up the coolant loop for the car's interior heater, which is annoying, so this figure isn't quite right
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:20 PM   #4236
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Default Vehicle suggestions for shikataganai (CN: Bought a ****in' Pacifica)

So if I just assume a heavy & huge F150 vs maybe something like a 40mpg vehicle from operating cost perspective does that sound reasonable? I’m sure the math will get clearer the deeper I go in detail.

FWIW our odyssey fuel is $0.128/mi and the 4runner is $0.0174/mi.
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:26 PM   #4237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thechickencow View Post
So if I just assume a heavy & huge F150 vs maybe something like a 40mpg vehicle from operating cost perspective does that sound reasonable? I’m sure the math will get clearer the deeper I go in detail.

FWIW our odyssey fuel is $0.128/mi and the 4runner is $0.0174/mi.
How does your 4runner get 7x the fuel economy of your odyssey?
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:29 PM   #4238
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The math is easy enough--just calculate it directly.

For gas, noting no parentheses:

[distance in miles] / MPG * [cost of gas per gallon]

For electrics:

[distance in miles] * [efficiency expressed in kWh/mile <-- note conversion here implicit from Wh/mile as usual] * [cost of electricity per kWh] / [efficiency of charging as %]
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:30 PM   #4239
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How does your 4runner get 7x the fuel economy of your odyssey?
Through dropping an order of magnitude inadvertently.

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Old 10-27-2019, 10:43 PM   #4240
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Whoops yeah 4R is 0.174/mi
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:25 AM   #4241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
The math is easy enough--just calculate it directly.

For gas, noting no parentheses:

[distance in miles] / MPG * [cost of gas per gallon]

For electrics:

[distance in miles] * [efficiency expressed in kWh/mile <-- note conversion here implicit from Wh/mile as usual] * [cost of electricity per kWh] / [efficiency of charging as %]


chris619
dr_wheel


Full_Clip will keep filling up his 4Runner with dino bones.
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:15 PM   #4242
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Pricing for the 2020 Mini Cooper SE-the historic British marque's first electric model-will start at $29,900 when it goes on sale in March of 2020.

[The] 32.6-kWh [battery] can power the car to an EPA-estimated 114 miles on a full charge. At its maximum DC fast-charge rate of 50 kW, the Cooper SE can recharge to 80 percent in approximately 35 minutes [...]

The range sucks, yes, and 50 kW fast charging is 6 years out of date... but at that price point this actually would make a great commute-specific machine, a less goofy Smart ED, if you will. In Colorado one would be net $18.4k + TTL on the full amount.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:32 PM   #4243
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I have a coworker that just got the phev awd version and he seems like like it.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:16 PM   #4244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
The range sucks, yes, and 50 kW fast charging is 6 years out of date... but at that price point this actually would make a great commute-specific machine, a less goofy Smart ED, if you will. In Colorado one would be net $18.4k + TTL on the full amount.

I wish my wife had that instead of her Clubman. More fun, less fuel, $11k cheaper new. I could drive it on MWF, she drives it on her evening shift on MW. It could eat up 6k miles a year that way not even coming close to the 115mi range. No additional driving even counted in that. Plus, I bet it is a blast to drive like her old R53 MCS. The 4Runner gets all the family weekend trips anyway because it is spacious and comfortable.

I’ll pick one up in 3 years for $12k.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:12 PM   #4245
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Snow has given my Model 3 the plump profile of a Model Y.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:23 AM   #4246
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I moved the Model 3 into the garage as the snow is abating.



Turns out the door handles freeze up (but with a little force can be opened), and the charging port will also freeze shut!



Luckily I have a plastic awl in my tool bench from my soldering kit, so was able to chip away at the ice and open up the charging door without harming the paint. I wasn't sure if the nominal 94 miles left on the battery would be sufficient for driving about tomorrow given that it'll still be in single digits.

For reference, a Model 3 left out in these conditions (9-20 F consistently for a few days) will use less than 6 miles of range per day in vampire drain.
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Old 10-30-2019, 10:25 AM   #4247
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I noticed on two Teslas yesterday, a 3 and a X, that the snow on the roof turned brown. Something about them turned it a rusty brown as it melted.
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Old 10-30-2019, 10:37 AM   #4248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benhart21 View Post
I noticed on two Teslas yesterday, a 3 and a X, that the snow on the roof turned brown. Something about them turned it a rusty brown as it melted.
Was it just a thin layer of snow? Because the roof glass's UV blocking layer makes it appear orange-brown in certain lights, especially with water on it.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/tes...-cool-science/


Last edited by shikataganai; 10-30-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:02 AM   #4249
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I hooned around on empty, packed snow-and-ice roads a bit this morning, getting slightly sideways. This and some braking tests made me realize why I don't like the Hankook winter tires on the Tesla (Winter i'Cept Evo 2, I think).

Their longitudinal grip is good. No issues with getting started and braking especially is solid.

But their lateral and especially rotational grip is not good. Way more sideways and yaw motion than I'd expect given the braking performance.

Next set (likely in a different size on a different vehicle entirely) will be Nokian Hakka R-whatever-they're-up-to-now for sure.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:07 AM   #4250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Was it just a thin layer of snow? Because the roof glass's UV blocking layer makes it appear orange-brown in certain lights, especially with water on it.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/tes...-cool-science/

Yup, that's exactly what it looked like.
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