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Old 12-28-2009, 08:31 AM   #51
holland_patrick
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well I'm coming in late but SOT would not be the way to go

I've done a few years of paddling in the types of water you are talking about
(rhode island salt ponds and streams) as well as some multi-day trips up in maine

I also paddled some SOT

I love my sit in and never tiped it over unless i wanted to do it and i feel very comfortable taking my camera gear in it (canon 1dmark IIN with my 100-400)



I'm is a 17 footer though so it's bigger then your looking for but it's nice and fast..

otherwise i would have never made it around Manhatten island in 8 hours with it
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:12 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Five.Ten View Post
If you do end up with a tandem, you had better have the patience of Job. They call them divorce boats for a reason.


*****I will never get into a canoe or kayak with my wife again because someone will drown********
Ha! Sorry to hear that! Our tandem kayak is definitely not a divorce boat. i sit in the back and match my wife's paddle strokes. it really isn't that hard for two people to work together in a tandem.

Our kayak experience:

In 2002, the wife an I wanted to get out on the water. Lakes and stuff, maybe slow rivers; flatwater. We waffled between a canoe and a tandem kayak, and eventuatlly setted on the tandem kayak. Due to a limited budget, we ended up with a Old Town Loon 160T. It is a recreational boat, but the length and hull shape make it not so much of a pig in the water. The boat is also outfitted with a rudder, which makes manuevering and staying on course in wind and curent easy.

Initially, we just wanted to get out onto the water and have fun. as we gained more experience, we've expanded our horizons. We've added a spray skirt/deck and have paddled in colder temps and choppy waters. We've also taken multi-day camping trips with the boat. It we lived on a sea coast, I would have upgraded to a sleeker, lighter tandem by now. But for what we do, this boat will serve us well for a long time.

Don't be afraid of rolling over in a sit in boat. If you're not wearing a skirt, you just get out of the boat and surface. Not much different that tipping a canoe over. If you are in a sit in and you're wearing a spray skirt, they usually have a grab tab on the front of the skirt (we were taught that it's called your 'Little Buddy') that when pulled, will release the skirt from around the cockpit, allowing you to get out.

I would recommend practicing emergency manuevers with a partner shortly after acquiring your boat. Learn how to get in and out of the boat in different situations. Learn to use a paddle float, too. The more comfortable you are with getting in and out of the boat under adverse conditions, the more comfortable you will be paddling in different conditions. I guess. I dunno. It helped us quite a bit.

And whatever you take with you in the kayak, I recommend leashing it to the boat somehow.
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikeeba View Post
It really isn't that hard for two people to work together in a tandem.

One of us is rhythm impaired. Probably me.
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:48 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
Seriously, I appreciate your input and intend to seek more. I see you live in WA and do a lot of white water. As adamant as you are, from there, about SINK's, I've talked to shop owners and local paddlers who are just as into SOT's.
I would ask the people (not the salespeople if possible) who like the sot better, how far they go in a typical paddle, how they handle bad weather and wintertime. Also ask them if they have spent as much time in a sink to be able to really compare the two. I can't imagine someone really trying to sell you a sot for what you want to do, unless they have ulterior motives (like trying to get rid of certain boats).

I do about 1/2 whitewater and 1/2 flatwater. About 90% of my flatwater time is in a Sit on top, but it is a little different than what you are looking to get.

Here is a random picture from online of the same boat that I paddle. Note how skinny it is- skinny=tippy.



The reason I think you would like a sit in kayak better is because of how slow the sot kayaks are. After a few times out in a sot, you will start wishing you could go farther easier. At first you might like the extra stability, but the stability of a sink isn't much different and you will be used to it very quickly. With how wide the sot kayaks are, it makes your forward stroke awkward to get around the side of the boat. After seeing where you will be paddling, I think that it won't take you long to wish that you could go further away from where you start, and the efficiency of a sink will allow you to.

Also, how are your winters? If it gets cold there (I am pretty sure it does where you are) a sot kayak is most likely not going to be used. I have a few hundred $ into just the clothes to wear for winter paddling my sot just so that I don't freeze to death. A sot is harder to keep warm because you know that you will be wet, where you can keep dry in a sink. That also makes it easier to go places after paddling, even dropping by the store on the way home is fine if you are in dry normal clothes, but in soaking wet neoprene pants, you get strange looks.

I have seen from working kayak rentals, and just from paddling around lots of other paddlers, the guys in the sot kayaks are slow, generally get bored faster, and don't go nearly as far as the sinks. They are almost always the ones holding the group back.

It is true that a sot might be better for you, but I could only see it if you plan on only paddling short distances, and doing such slowly (not getting into paddling for exercise), only going out in good weather, not doing group paddles. Generally, the people who like the sot kayaks are the ones who just want to sit in the water (least amount of paddling as possible) and either fish, swim, or take pictures.

Quote:
I imagine doing this with and SOT:

There is a group of kayakers who do stuff like that x100 in sit in kayaks. They are about 75% sit in and 25% sit on for that type of stuff. I have done it in sit in kayaks only.


Sorry all my posts in here are so long. I don't know, perhaps I shouldn't be stearing you so hard towards a sink, but I honestly think you will be happier with one (at least after 5x paddling). I have honestly never talked to anyone who went out in a sot very often who was happy with their boat. They just aren't paddler boats, they are fisherman/photographer/sightseeing boats.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CF-Ninja View Post
Have you tried the Valley Rapier 20? I had the privilege of using one while I worked at the shop. It felt like I had a motor compared to my touring boat. It isn't quiet in the class of the SOT racing kayaks, but damn does it haul ass.
That isn't a bad boat, but it still isn't a surfski. I have also spent a lot of time in a Kayak Pro Vampire, and both are fast, probably about 1.5 mph faster for me than a normal fast sea kayak over a distance, but I think that the biggest problem is the weight and beam. My surfski is 21' by 17" and only 22lbs. Even the extra .75" of the Rapier is a big disadvantage, but the extra 25lbs is an even bigger one.

I haven't been in a Van Dusen Mohican, and I really want to try one of those. I guess they are somewhere between a ski and a kayak, and I have seen some race results where they have really done well.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
I have honestly never talked to anyone who went out in a sot very often who was happy with their boat. They just aren't paddler boats, they are fisherman/photographer/sightseeing boats.
Agree. They are fine for rentals or if you just want to play around a bit, but not much good for actually going anywhere at a decent speed.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:48 PM   #56
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There will be a moonlight paddle this week out here...have any in your areas? I've paddled at night and had the dolphins come up next to me..very cool!
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:53 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
See this guy? He is looking over at the 12 foot sit-in walking away from him wishing he wasn't going backwards in the current
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:12 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring View Post
There will be a moonlight paddle this week out here...have any in your areas? I've paddled at night and had the dolphins come up next to me..very cool!
I'm sure in the summer time there are local events. I have no interest in any of that crap. I just want to get out about an hour or 2 a day, check out some local tributaries and chill on some sand bars. I don't see myself rushing out to buy some Columbia Rip Stop Kayak shorts and water shoes any time soon!
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:52 PM   #59
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Just had a convo with a local, and again it was SOT.

This whole decision thing makes me want to vomit. I don't understand why they make SOTs if they're so horrible?
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
Just had a convo with a local, and again it was SOT.

This whole decision thing makes me want to vomit. I don't understand why they make SOTs if they're so horrible?
Think about it man, they want to sell you two boats.

They want you to first buy a sit on top, get hooked on the sport, then sell you a faster sit in kayak.

Just skip the first part, take our word for it.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
Just had a convo with a local, and again it was SOT.

This whole decision thing makes me want to vomit. I don't understand why they make SOTs if they're so horrible?
Kinda like why do they still make hardtails, when full suspension is the way to go?!
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:18 PM   #62
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Kinda like why do they still make hardtails, when full suspension is the way to go?!
I wouldn't ride a FS bike if my life depended on it. I'm not really even sold on suspension up front. But that's me.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:19 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by SailRacer View Post
Think about it man, they want to sell you two boats.

They want you to first buy a sit on top, get hooked on the sport, then sell you a faster sit in kayak.

Just skip the first part, take our word for it.
These weren't dealers.

The biggest problem they tell me they have is traking, but aside from that they like the ease of an SOT.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
I don't understand why they make SOTs if they're so horrible?
For splashing around and getting wet. Which is about two months out of the year. They also keep the kids occupied like an air mattress does.

I just think there is a greater potential to regret a SOT purchase; a proper sit-in will serve you longer through a greater range of situations as your horizons expand (they will if you find you enjoy paddling). There is nothing that an SOT can do that a proper kayak can't, but the reverse is not true.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:36 PM   #65
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Are you going to go try a few different boats?

If I were in your position, I would rent/demo as many as I could for at least three days. That way you can narrow down what you like (day one), paddle a few that you are trying to decide between (day two), and make sure you like the boat you want to buy even after 2 hours of paddling just that (day three).

I keep saying to demo boats, that is the one most important thing you can do.

I also think you will see what we are saying about SOTs if you do, also.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:37 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by WhiteH2O View Post
Are you going to go try a few different boats?

If I were in your position, I would rent/demo as many as I could for at least three days. That way you can narrow down what you like (day one), paddle a few that you are trying to decide between (day two), and make sure you like the boat you want to buy even after 2 hours of paddling just that (day three).

I keep saying to demo boats, that is the one most important thing you can do.
So really I should just wait until July, as all the rental places are closed around here.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:40 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
So really I should just wait until July, as all the rental places are closed around here.
If that is what it takes to be able to try all the boats you want to try, that might be a good idea.

Most dealers will let you try before you buy, have you asked about that at the local stores? If they really think you would like an SOT better, they should be willing to let you try and compare them before they take your money.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:42 PM   #68
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Kinda like why do they still make hardtails, when full suspension is the way to go?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
I wouldn't ride a FS bike if my life depended on it. I'm not really even sold on suspension up front. But that's me.
Sorry you didnt get the sarcasm in my post
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:46 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by WhiteH2O View Post
If that is what it takes to be able to try all the boats you want to try, that might be a good idea.

Most dealers will let you try before you buy, have you asked about that at the local stores? If they really think you would like an SOT better, they should be willing to let you try and compare them before they take your money.
I feel like I'm asking a monster truck forum about Miatas. I don't know why I'm leaning so hard towards an SOT and away from a SINK. Maybe I don't like my legs being inside of the boat. I don't know what it is, but all I'm hearing is that in no time I'll regret buying what I think I really want.

My brother found one and forwarded the link the my Mom... maybe I'll just throw in the towel and use his if I really feel like I want to go out some time.

Edit: and no... all the places that rent kayaks are closed until the summer.
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Old 12-28-2009, 05:03 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
So really I should just wait until July, as all the rental places are closed around here.
Yes. I hope you wouldn't buy a car without test-driving it. You shouldn't buy a kayak without trying a bunch.
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Old 12-28-2009, 05:34 PM   #71
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Yes. I hope you wouldn't buy a car without test-driving it. You shouldn't buy a kayak without trying a bunch.
Ed zachary. I'm out of this for a while.
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Old 12-28-2009, 06:44 PM   #72
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my family has a few diferent yaks (perception i think?), 2-10foot maybe, and a couple like 14 feet maybe. the longer ones definatly get going better and don't seem that much harder to manuever. i'm not a pro, but i don't think you'll have any problem finding yore balance in a "sit in". in fact i never thought about it. it just kinda sits there amd you turn it.

good luck anyway. i'd like a sit on for when we go drunk kayaking in the summer maybe, down the river where it's more stop and go. but for going long distances and across smaller lakes/bays, i'd def go with a nice sit-in.

oh, and like holland said, they're pretty stable if yore looking more on the amatuer side. you just about have to try to tip that kind of sit in, they're quite stable. unless yore really drunk.

edit: oh yeah, the sit-ins provide nice shade for yore legs in the summer too.

Last edited by Meat Supply; 12-28-2009 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 12-28-2009, 06:51 PM   #73
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Still a lot of good info on here, thanks.

The whole "test drive" idea is one I like in theory but not in practicality for a few reasons; 1) Not many places to even LOOK at various kayaks 2) Most places have SOT kayaks and 3) In the event I did a test drive I would feel completely obligated to purchase from them.

I am taking advice found in here, on the "street", and found in various websites. I am still leaning towards the Perception Carolina 12. While the 14 would be ideal I haven't found any deals on it and as a newbie the 12 might be easier to handle and learn with........... while still being plenty capable of doing everything I ask of a intro kayak.

Is this a deal? Thinking of snatching this up;

http://cgi.ebay.com/KAYAK-Perception...item5884e975ab
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Old 12-28-2009, 07:34 PM   #74
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Quote:
3) In the event I did a test drive I would feel completely obligated to purchase from them.
Why?

Anyway, I still say go used; shouldn't be any trouble doing test paddles.
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Old 12-28-2009, 07:44 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by 4x4GGG View Post
I'm sure in the summer time there are local events. I have no interest in any of that crap. I just want to get out about an hour or 2 a day, check out some local tributaries and chill on some sand bars. I don't see myself rushing out to buy some Columbia Rip Stop Kayak shorts and water shoes any time soon!
then make sure I don't get you for Secret Santa next year...it'll be two pair of Columbia Rip Stop Kayak shorts for you buddy I'll keep the water shoes!
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