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Old 03-22-2020, 10:34 PM   #101
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I was about to say that. I too have wishbone.exe.
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:36 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I was about to say that. I too have wishbone.exe.
I managed to get it working last night on W10 so all I need to do now is go re-measure everything. As of today I am "working from home" indefinitely so I should have plenty of time.
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:11 PM   #103
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Yeah, I think we're all finding a bit more time in the garage now
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:27 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by JDwhiteWRX View Post
I managed to get it working last night on W10 so all I need to do now is go re-measure everything. As of today I am "working from home" indefinitely so I should have plenty of time.
Always keen to hear how the rest of the world is managing.

I've popped in and out of this thread so sorry if it's been covered. Did you look at the dive geometry as well or make it adjustable?

Last edited by Hardrvin; 03-27-2020 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 06:44 PM   #105
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Always keen to here how the rest of the world is managing.

I’ve popped in and out of this thread so sorry if it’s been covered. Did you look at the dive geometry as well or make it adjustable?
I have left anti-dive out of the front suspension, there is still some angle there but its just enough to allow for rake so it doesn't go into pro-dive. I can also adjust a very small amount of angle into the control arms by playing with the spacers where the arms attach to the chassis.

This was something I considered for a long time, it seems like some professional builds remove it and some leave it in. I've had a good look at many cars at WTAC over the years, Under Suzuki's new build had no anti-dive but the HKS TRB03 had left it in for example.
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Old 03-26-2020, 05:49 PM   #106
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I've had a good look at many cars at WTAC over the years, Under Suzuki's new build had no anti-dive but the HKS TRB03 had left it in for example.
Was Suzuki running a 3rd spring for downforce and the TRB03 wasn't?
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Old 03-26-2020, 07:53 PM   #107
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Was Suzuki running a 3rd spring for downforce and the TRB03 wasn't?
This is true but they were just a couple of examples off the top of my head. I went back and looked at some more of my photos and again its a mix of some have it and some don't, Under's car was the first to compete a 3rd spring as previously they were not allowed.

A quote from Carroll Smith's Tune to Win book:

How much anti-dive a given car can tolerate is a question
of the height and fore and aft location of the c.g., wheelbase
length, mass and the expected rate of retardation. Present
practice is to use none on Formula Cars and Sports racing
Cars-they don't need it and, due to their inherently sensitive
natures, they can't tolerate the upsets. Large front
engined Sedans, on the other hand, aren't very sensitive to
begin with and need all of the help they can get and typically
feature 20% to 25% anti dive.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:45 PM   #108
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A lot of current TA is far beyond what Carroll studying. The downforce numbers have become quite wild.

If not running a 3rd spring, the spring rates have to be crazy high. So no wonder the minor CG pitch forward wouldn't effect dynamics in such a combo.
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Old 03-27-2020, 06:04 AM   #109
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Yes the Tilton Evo was running 1800kg front springs this year.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:21 PM   #110
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Yes the Tilton Evo was running 1800kg front springs this year.
Wow- that's huge
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:37 PM   #111
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A few photos off my phone form WTAC last year.

Tilton Evo after the tire failure.


Front springs


Under's new car after he crashed in practice, you can see the upper control arm is level. I also have photos of the Nemo Evo and RP968 with level front control arms.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:32 AM   #112
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Yes the Tilton Evo was running 1800kg front springs this year.
Something's doesn't feel quite right here. Even if that 1800 was in N/mm, that's still something like 10,300 lb/in, and the front sta-bar in the second picture would basically be just ballast.

I have a suspicion that the 190-65-1800 designation is in mixed units, metric for the dimensions and "English" for the rate. 1800 lb/in is still pretty darn firm, but it's a rate that's fairly easy to source.


On edit, 65mm OD x 18mm wire diameter x 190mm free length with 6 active coils ==>right around 1800 lb/in.


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 03-28-2020 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 03-29-2020, 10:01 PM   #113
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Old 03-30-2020, 08:34 AM   #114
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Dunno . . . I agree, the part number format looks consistent but I can't make that KW lookup find anything past 350. I suppose it could be a special custom-wound spring, but if you take the 65 and 190 dimensions with four active coils you end up with something more like 650. Not cleanly passing a sanity check.


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Old 03-30-2020, 08:39 AM   #115
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Quote:
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Dunno . . . I agree, the part number format looks consistent but I can't make that KW lookup find anything past 350. I suppose it could be a special custom-wound spring, but if you take the 65 and 190 dimensions with four active coils you end up with something more like 650. Not cleanly passing a sanity check.


Norm
Having spent time doing specialized suspension design, a lot of these spring manufacturers have specialized springs not in the normal catalog.

Wouldn't surprise me if it's a special spring.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 03-30-2020 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 03-30-2020, 09:30 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Having spent time doing specialized suspension design, a lot of these spring manufacturers have specialized springs not in the normal catalog.

Wouldn't surprise me if it's a special spring.
Understood. It's just that I can't make 1800 N/mm happen from the dimensions provided. Not even close.

I get why you'd need to run more front spring if you're running little or no anti-dive (kind of where this whole sidetrack started).



On edit, I spent way too many years making and reviewing engineering calculations to not keep trying to make stuff like this make sense.


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 03-30-2020 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:05 AM   #117
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It's been a while since my last update, there is no single reason so I won't bore you all with excuses.

Anyway I have just finished making the passenger side front lower control arm.



The dirvers side had rusted a bit so I cleaned both of them up and gave them a coat of cold gal.



I still need to add tabs for the shock and abti-roll bar mounts at a later date, I don't know their position at this stage.

Next job is the rear upper control arms which I have already made the welding jig for so hopefully they won't take too long.
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Old 05-20-2020, 05:18 AM   #118
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Today I finished one of the rear upper control arms. These were a lot more difficult to make than I thought they would be due to the need to maintain the angle where the control arm bolts to the upright. If this was flat then the arms could have been a super simple standard A-arm design.

I made the welding jig for these arms a while ago but had to put some finishing touches on it before I could begin.



I was only able to use my tube notcher for one of the notches, all the rest were done by hand. I also used a printable notch template for one of them.



95% of it was welded in the jig and the rest had to be done with it removed for better access.



The finished product, you can see the angle I was talking about.



and how it mounts to the upright



I think it came out nice, decent weight savings too as those OEM arms are super heavy! I think this is the first time my arms have been lighter than standard.



Once I have fabricated the passenger side control arm then that is all the suspension control arms complete.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:27 PM   #119
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I couldn't help myself, I had to bolt the rear suspension together to see what it looked like.

I'm super happy with the results, it did take a long time to build but the cost has been pretty minimal.

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Old 05-21-2020, 02:11 AM   #120
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one more photo.

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Old 05-25-2020, 01:57 AM   #121
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Looking great.
Glad to see photos up and working again.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:36 PM   #122
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Looking great.
Glad to see photos up and working again.
Thanks, I decided to load up my last couple of photos in Flickr but I don't see them sticking around much longer so unfortunately using Imgur again for my next post.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:47 PM   #123
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Try using NASIOC's own photo hosting. Click on the 'Images' tab at the very top of the page under the "Welcome to the North American . . . " banner. I think you'll need to set up an Images account separate from your NASIOC one.


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Old 05-26-2020, 04:56 AM   #124
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Try using NASIOC's own photo hosting. Click on the 'Images' tab at the very top of the page under the "Welcome to the North American . . . " banner. I think you'll need to set up an Images account separate from your NASIOC one.


Norm
That would be ok if this was the only forum I post this project on but I also post it to another 3 forums.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:57 PM   #125
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Thanks, I decided to load up my last couple of photos in Flickr but I don't see them sticking around much longer so unfortunately using Imgur again for my next post.
Yeah, I feel you on that. I haven't been putting anything on Flickr anymore.
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