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Old 02-22-2017, 09:03 AM   #1
Chuckable
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News Internal vs. External Wastegates



Saw this posted on Motoiq.com this morning: http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...Wastegate.aspx

Interesting discussion, and includes the Bren Tuning comparison of KillerB's internal vs. external wastegates for the FA20DIT engine.


Long story short, external wastegates are the way to go if you can package them and aren't worried about emissions.
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Old 02-22-2017, 03:07 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckable View Post
Long story short, external wastegates are the way to go if you can package them and aren't worried about emissions.
Pros:
1 - BWWAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
2 - Less backpressure in the exhaust manifold
3 - Scene points
4 - see #1

Cons:
1 - Noise
2 - Emissions

Noise can be circumvented with a well designed recirculating setup. Killer B has a really sexy one that's done right and probably makes +/- 10whp from the dumped version.

Emissions is trickier, but that can be fixed with a proper spring and EBCS setup. With a 4 port, you can run a much lighter spring and still have enough pressure to run high boost.
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Old 02-22-2017, 03:54 PM   #3
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Very cool article. Glad we could be a part of it!


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Originally Posted by playslikepage71 View Post
Killer B has a really sexy one that's done right and probably makes +/- 10whp from the dumped version.
We saw no difference on the dyno, but in all honesty they were not done back-to-back. The sessions were done months apart. Maybe there was a 10hp difference, maybe not? My butt dyno couldn't detect a difference, but there was definitely no more BWWAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!
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Old 02-22-2017, 04:03 PM   #4
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We saw no difference on the dyno, but in all honesty they were not done back-to-back. The sessions were done months apart. Maybe there was a 10hp difference, maybe not? My butt dyno couldn't detect a difference, but there was definitely no more BWWAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!
That's why I said +/-10 whp. It's within the variation of a few dyno runs, for sure. People get too hung up on numbers and ignore things like functionality and practicality. I rocked an EWG on my GR, but if I ever get a kit, it will be recirculated.

You notice much difference between the recirc EWG setup and the IWG in terms of sound?
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Old 02-22-2017, 04:12 PM   #5
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on the stock or an IWG turbo couldn't you just plumb the IWG back in and leave the EWG's shut for emissions on a basic tune?
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Old 02-22-2017, 06:20 PM   #6
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You notice much difference between the recirc EWG setup and the IWG in terms of sound?
Yes kinda, but keep in mind we're comparing an OEM turbo setup to a larger Garrett. The exhaust volume didn't increase anymore than adding that much more power can contribute to sound levels, but you can hear when the EWG is regulating boost. It's extremely muted, but any hardcore enthusiast will recognize it. Open the window, or turn up the radio and you don't. It's about on par with going from a cast manifold to a tube manifold. You head more sound from the engine because more is radiating from a header. I would expect the factory IWG is not noticed as much because it's enormously turbulent at the dumping point; the turbine outlet.

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Originally Posted by _brian_ View Post
on the stock or an IWG turbo couldn't you just plumb the IWG back in and leave the EWG's shut for emissions on a basic tune?
Yes you could get crafty and do something like that. Going from EWG to IWG means removing the IWG valve perma-close hardware, putting the IWG actuator back on, plumbing it, capping the EWGs, and loading your IWG tune. That should cover it.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playslikepage71 View Post
Pros:
1 - BWWAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
2 - Less backpressure in the exhaust manifold
3 - Scene points
4 - see #1

Cons:
1 - Noise
2 - Emissions

Noise can be circumvented with a well designed recirculating setup. Killer B has a really sexy one that's done right and probably makes +/- 10whp from the dumped version.

Emissions is trickier, but that can be fixed with a proper spring and EBCS setup. With a 4 port, you can run a much lighter spring and still have enough pressure to run high boost.

What did you mean by 4 port? And lighter spring do you mean in the ewg? I'm just wondering I want the killer b header with ewg my thing is I'd like to pass emissions if possible. I already have EGR delete done. My county does not test emissions they do in the county next to me but not mine. But when I go for sticker they are going to see that under the car. Well maybe not if you can get the skid plate back on hiding all of the ewgs.
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zachreny View Post
What did you mean by 4 port? And lighter spring do you mean in the ewg? I'm just wondering I want the killer b header with ewg my thing is I'd like to pass emissions if possible. I already have EGR delete done. My county does not test emissions they do in the county next to me but not mine. But when I go for sticker they are going to see that under the car. Well maybe not if you can get the skid plate back on hiding all of the ewgs.
A 4 port BCS is like a 3 port BCS, but it has 4 ports. Sorry, I had to.

It's got the extra port so that you plumb it in this manner:


By doing that, you can make the boost go to either side of the diaphragm. By running the boost to the underside of the diaphragm, you can use it to hold the wastegate closed longer than the actual spring pressure will allow by just fully venting the boost signal with a 3 port. It let's you run a lighter spring so you can run a wider boost range. 3 ports give you about twice spring pressure. 4 ports are more, but I'm not sure exactly how much.

The point is you could run a 5 or 7 psi spring and have a tune that's mild in the lower end of the throttle map for emissions and full blast when you floor it.
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:23 AM   #9
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With my super quiet exhaust my EWGs sound like two big hair driers under the hood. So cool!
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undyjr View Post


With my super quiet exhaust my EWGs sound like two big hair driers under the hood. So cool!
Does your brush guard and under tray still fit on the bottom?
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:35 AM   #11
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Does your brush guard and under tray still fit on the bottom?
Sure, with some spacers
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:38 AM   #12
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This is what is known as the "full send"
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:21 PM   #13
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Sure, with some spacers
Got any pics with it all buttoned up?
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:32 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by scotte30m3 View Post
Got any pics with it all buttoned up?
I'm no longer using the factory plastic under tray. Instead I'm using an aluminum tray with an access door for oil changes. I'm still using the factory skid plate with the spacers provided with the Perrin header. The EWG recirculation is custom, done by my tuner. They used to have atmospheric dumps, got old real quick. First time my dad heard them he thought I lost another motor! I'll try to get some pics with it up in the air. Given the custom nature I'm not sure it'll be all that helpful
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by undyjr View Post


With my super quiet exhaust my EWGs sound like two big hair driers under the hood. So cool!
Woah, you did that the hard way

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Old 11-07-2017, 07:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Woah, you did that the hard way

Roger that. Although we considered your recirculation option a cat was piped in where yours empties into the intermediate pipe. It's so quiet I find myself ripping on it ALL the time.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by undyjr View Post
I find myself ripping on it ALL the time.
and this is the point

As I've grown older, recirculated WGs have become more of a necessity. It's highly subjective (sound) and I work with several younger guys who would still not even think twice about VTA and hood exit exhausts
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Woah, you did that the hard way

Have a pic with the brush guard off?

What doe your recirculated kit cost? I have your EWG header with stock turbo.

Thanks
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotte30m3 View Post
Have a pic with the brush guard off?

What doe your recirculated kit cost? I have your EWG header with stock turbo.

Thanks
A pic without the skid plate? Good luck. He could show you but then he would have to kill you.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undyjr View Post
A pic without the skid plate? Good luck. He could show you but then he would have to kill you.
Well if he wants me to buy it I’d like to see what it looks like, LOL.

They make good stuff no doubt...
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotte30m3 View Post
Have a pic with the brush guard off?
Oddly enough, I don't. No magic though, just a lot of work

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotte30m3 View Post
What doe your recirculated kit cost?
It varies by turbo and options, but you can find all combinations right here...

Twin Scroll Fury Turbo Kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by undyjr View Post
A pic without the skid plate? Good luck. He could show you but then he would have to kill you.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:26 PM   #22
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I’ve emailed them before begging for a external recirc on there stock turbo kB header setup. They said they have no plans for the old header but will have one up for the new header. Why make a recirc kit for a header that’s 1 year old? I don’t get it myself I’m willing to pay whatever the sound is nasty and not in a good way.
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:26 PM   #23
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I’ve emailed them before begging for a external recirc on there stock turbo kB header setup. They said they have no plans for the old header but will have one up for the new header. Why make a recirc kit for a header that’s 1 year old? I don’t get it myself I’m willing to pay whatever the sound is nasty and not in a good way.
There's no easy way to do this. I've been scratching my head on this one for a while now. For best performance it needs to go into the I-Pipe, but we're talking considerable expense
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Oddly enough, I don't. No magic though, just a lot of work



It varies by turbo and options, but you can find all combinations right here...

Twin Scroll Fury Turbo Kit



No doubt it’s a lot of work but $1750 is a little steep for a bare bone recirculating kit that will still require some fab work to function with my exhaust setup...

I knew it, I should have just given you all my money from the get go. LoL
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by scotte30m3 View Post
No doubt it’s a lot of work but $1750 is a little steep for a bare bone recirculating kit that will still require some fab work to function with my exhaust setup...

I knew it, I should have just given you all my money from the get go. LoL
Well that price is for the setup ready to bolt in, no fab work.
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