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Old 03-31-2015, 12:35 PM   #1
Sabo1886
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Default E85 DI high pressure fuel pump

Hi guys, I'm on my second HPFP using E85 and I know many of you have had pump failures do to lack of lubrication of factory pump and a 30% increase of pump. Does anyone know if any manufacture is working on making an E85 compatible high pressure fuel pump? I was one of the first E85 WRX back in June of 2014 and two pumps in one year total. If anyone has any solutions please let me know!
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:42 PM   #2
kris5597
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Probably shouldn't run fulL e85.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:49 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo1886 View Post
Hi guys, I'm on my second HPFP using E85 and I know many of you have had pump failures do to lack of lubrication of factory pump and a 30% increase of pump. Does anyone know if any manufacture is working on making an E85 compatible high pressure fuel pump? I was one of the first E85 WRX back in June of 2014 and two pumps in one year total. If anyone has any solutions please let me know!

There are a few companies that have e85 compatible pumps. DW for instance does.

In addition, you can run an additive to the e85 to provide the needed lubrication. I know for certain tuners (Clark Tuning, for example), this is a requirement of their tune.

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Originally Posted by kris5597 View Post
Probably shouldn't run fulL e85.
This is quite nonsensical.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:02 PM   #4
Sabo1886
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Originally Posted by lookylookitzadam View Post
There are a few companies that have e85 compatible pumps. DW for instance does.

In addition, you can run an additive to the e85 to provide the needed lubrication. I know for certain tuners (Clark Tuning, for example), this is a requirement of their tune.



This is quite nonsensical.
The pump you're talking about is an in tank pump not the high pressure fuel pump. The in tank pump is not an issue the DW and all other companies make the in tank pump. We have exhausted the lubricant that Clark Tunning uses its Lucas E85 treatment. Some people actually eat through pumps faster with the Lucas treatment.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo1886 View Post
We have exhausted the lubricant that Clark Tunning uses its Lucas E85 treatment. Some people actually eat through pumps faster with the Lucas treatment.
Clark has said that none of his e85 tuned cars have had issues...?
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo1886 View Post
The pump you're talking about is an in tank pump not the high pressure fuel pump. The in tank pump is not an issue the DW and all other companies make the in tank pump. We have exhausted the lubricant that Clark Tunning uses its Lucas E85 treatment. Some people actually eat through pumps faster with the Lucas treatment.
I see... you didn't mention what specifically you were looking for so sorry for the info there, however, Walbro offers e85 HPFP's, is that not what you are looking for?

Check out some of the supra and n54 forums. Those guys have multi-pump E85 options.

Also, do you have info on the lucas treatment causing premature wear? I have never heard that, but would be very interesting in looking into it since Ill be doing another e85 conversion in the future.
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookylookitzadam View Post
I see... you didn't mention what specifically you were looking for so sorry for the info there, however, Walbro offers e85 HPFP's, is that not what you are looking for?

Check out some of the supra and n54 forums. Those guys have multi-pump E85 options.
He is referring to the pump driven by camshaft and controlled by solenoid, not an electric pump. They are for the most part application specific, as some of the basic single piston pumps are 3 lobe, some are 4 lobe, and they are made by different suppliers. The N54 BMW engine has an earlier generation fuel system with piezoelectric injectors and an unusual HPFP design supplied by Siemens/Continental. It's very different injectors and fuel pump even from the newer generation BMW turbo DI engines, which use a more conventional design like you'd see on the FA20.

Do you have a link to these E85 high pressure fuel pump you are talking about? I suspect they are all in-tank pumps. I've never seen an actual HPFP sold by the aftermarket and advertised as fitting a specific application while being rated for higher flow rates and resistance to ethanol.

Supras are not direct injected and don't have high pressure fuel pumps.
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:36 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
He is referring to the pump driven by camshaft and controlled by solenoid, not an electric pump. They are for the most part application specific, as some of the basic single piston pumps are 3 lobe, some are 4 lobe, and they are made by different suppliers. The N54 BMW engine has an earlier generation fuel system with piezoelectric injectors and an unusual HPFP design supplied by Siemens/Continental. It's very different injectors and fuel pump even from the newer generation BMW turbo DI engines, which use a more conventional design like you'd see on the FA20.

Do you have a link to these E85 high pressure fuel pump you are talking about? I suspect they are all in-tank pumps. I've never seen an actual HPFP sold by the aftermarket and advertised as fitting a specific application while being rated for higher flow rates and resistance to ethanol.

Supras are not direct injected and don't have high pressure fuel pumps.
Gotcha, yeah, I was not thinking of a cam driven pump. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I'll take a look when I get home to see if I can find the link I was thinking, however it'd probably not be applicable here after reading your post. Thanks for clarifying, and yes I was referring to an electric pump. The pumps I have seen have only be universal as well because it just isn't cost effective for a company to produce a specific pump for a smaller segment of the market IMHO.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:02 PM   #9
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Thanks guys, I was talking about the cam driven HPFP. It is the biggest limitation to the E85 conversion on a 2015 WRX. If a solution were to come up then we would be 100% golden on running E85 on a 2015 WRX. Any insight is appreciated.
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo1886 View Post
Hi guys, I'm on my second HPFP using E85 and I know many of you have had pump failures do to lack of lubrication of factory pump and a 30% increase of pump. Does anyone know if any manufacture is working on making an E85 compatible high pressure fuel pump? I was one of the first E85 WRX back in June of 2014 and two pumps in one year total. If anyone has any solutions please let me know!
just curious...do you have a part number on the hpfp and what do they cost to replace? Also, if the pump is cam driven, could a block off plate be made to run an electric external hpfp?

Last edited by tyler37075; 04-01-2015 at 08:06 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 04-01-2015, 08:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookylookitzadam View Post
There are a few companies that have e85 compatible pumps. DW for instance does.

In addition, you can run an additive to the e85 to provide the needed lubrication. I know for certain tuners (Clark Tuning, for example), this is a requirement of their tune.



This is quite nonsensical.
Idiot...

I would say Clark Turner's tuned cars don't have any issues... YET. It's just a matter of time. The factory hpfp is not meant for full e85.

To OP, what is the power difference from a blend of e85 and running full e85? If we are talking 5-10whp, is it really worth it on something you probably daily. I'd take 290whp and it last forever than 300whp and create problems.
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Old 04-01-2015, 09:24 AM   #12
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I've never heard of an electric high pressure fuel pump on a production DI system. I don't see how that could be controlled with the stock ECU.
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Old 04-01-2015, 10:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler37075 View Post
just curious...do you have a part number on the hpfp and what do they cost to replace? Also, if the pump is cam driven, could a block off plate be made to run an electric external hpfp?
This is probably never going to happen. We are talking about 2400psi here....
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Old 04-01-2015, 05:04 PM   #14
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I know theshopCT or EFI took apart their fuel pump to see what could be changed. I don't recall anything coming out of that... I know some places are working on HPFP replacements though. Surprised some place like Corksport or some place that has them already for teh BMW or MS3 world isn't popping up to make parts. It'll be interesting what parts come out for our cars in the course of the year, with so many being sold...
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:48 AM   #15
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My HPFP is also beginning to fail. Sudden power loss during high speed steady state driving. I'll probably have to get it replaced sometimes soon.
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Sinsear View Post
My HPFP is also beginning to fail. Sudden power loss during high speed steady state driving. I'll probably have to get it replaced sometimes soon.
are you running e85 also?
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Old 04-03-2015, 07:26 PM   #17
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are you running e85 also?
Yep. Very similar to the OP.
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Old 04-03-2015, 08:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sinsear View Post
Yep. Very similar to the OP.
This sucks!! I've been chomping at the bit for cobb to finish the flexfuel but I don't want to run e85 if it's going to eat $500 fuel pumps
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Old 04-05-2015, 01:07 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Sinsear View Post
My HPFP is also beginning to fail. Sudden power loss during high speed steady state driving. I'll probably have to get it replaced sometimes soon.
My car was doing the same thing dude. I switched back to pump and it went away. I have a feeling I'll be buying a new fuel pump as well sometime soon just due to me missing the power from E85.
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:51 PM   #20
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Guys if anyone comes up with a fix for it, please post here!!!! I miss the power and I don't want to sell my WRX for a more powerful car!
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:46 AM   #21
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Looking for a high pressure fuel pump solution as well. Anyone find anything?
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by kris5597 View Post
Idiot...

I would say Clark Turner's tuned cars don't have any issues... YET. It's just a matter of time. The factory hpfp is not meant for full e85.

To OP, what is the power difference from a blend of e85 and running full e85? If we are talking 5-10whp, is it really worth it on something you probably daily. I'd take 290whp and it last forever than 300whp and create problems.
You're a larger idiot for thinking "blending" e85 and straight e85 is only worth a few whp.
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Old 06-08-2015, 09:22 PM   #23
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I'd recommend asking your tuner about what the fuel pump duty cycle is set to.

I am on an ecutek flexfuel tune, and have only gone through about 3-4 tanks of e85 so far. I've been going through some different map revisions, and after flashing one rev last week I experienced repeated sudden power loss anytime I gave the car throttle. I threw a p0203 fuel pump primary circuit cel, and the car would not start at all after I parked. Called my tuner and he said the issue was he had tried increasing the fuel pump duty cycle, sent me a new map to flash, and the car immediately started and hasn't had an issue since.
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Old 06-09-2015, 04:29 PM   #24
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I am running e30, but have left stock Fuel Rail Pressure alone. Are you guys ramping up your desired Fuel Rail Pressure on the e85 tunes or something? I have just been modifying the Injector Trim tables to accommodate for the ethanol.

If you guys are looking for "head room" to allow for the longer Injector Pulsewidth, you could try to request the Start Of Injection angle to begin a little bit sooner. Right now the stock tune has the SOI at around 340* at high RPM and high load. You could bump that up to 350 or more degrees if need be. I realize that does almost jack squat, but it can help a tiny bit. You just always have to be mindful in your tune that your Injector Pulse does not overlap your ignition.

Last edited by Psykostevo; 06-09-2015 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:29 PM   #25
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Ethanol and high pressure fuel pumps are a nightmare. I would suggest looking to see if Subaru sells DI engines in Brazil. If they do, sourcing a pump from there would be the best bet, since they use 100% Ethanol.

If Subaru doesn't, you'll have to find a pump from another vehicle. There are only a few suppliers of high pressure fuel pumps (Bosch, Denso, Delphi), so someone sells your pump or one close enough in Brazil (or even a flex fuel in the US).

If you cannot find a Subaru specific for ethanol, then find other makers with DI flex fuel vehicles, and get your hands on the pump. If the pump body looks similar, the chance is good the control strategy for the solenoid on the pump is the same.
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