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Old 08-04-2020, 02:41 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rimsky55 View Post
Slightly off topic, but why is the US STI so expensive compared to the Canadian version? I don't think there are any significant differences, other than no TPMS required in Canada.



A base Canadian STI is C$40.3k (about US$30.1k at 1.34 CAD:USD), with the equivalent-to-Series.White Kanrai at C$50.4k (USD37.6k).
Currency exchange rate. Plain and simple.

When I bought my Impreza RS in 1999 it was less expensive in Canada, with the exchange rate similar to what it is now. In 2009 when the CAD was at par or above, my Legacy was less expensive in the US. Now that the CAD is lower, Subarus are comparitively less expensive again.

Manufactuers rarely change the prices of vehicles/models much within a country, so currency differences will have a big impact when comparing.
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Old 08-04-2020, 07:35 PM   #52
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If they ever got to the point where the STI wasnt their flagship performance car and thought they didnt need it anymore they would probably just sell the entire company to Ford or GM or something LOL. The STI is a highly sought after performance car all around the world and especially in the U.S.

As for just dropping the STI and turning the WRX into a catalog parts car? Thats one of the weirdest things I have read on any subaru site. FYI there has been SPT performance parts catalogs available at Subaru parts depts forever...for the WRX and the STI. The Addition of the Type RA parts and the S209 parts being available and the "Series edition" WRX's and STI means all those parts are available individially as well. So the catalogue parts have always been availble for upgrades and the STI has never skipped a beat....so its not really an idea that has any merit to just drop the STI because parts are available for the WRX. I think if that ever happened they would just drop both....and stick with economy super mileage hybrids and the STI and WRX would be gone.

Subaru beat the evo with the EVO flagship no longer in production, the Focus RS took a big dump in the pants as well. The STI is still the king. Not going anywhere.
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:22 PM   #53
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Is it though? It already died in Japan.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:25 PM   #54
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Keep it civil... not going to remind you folks how to act here.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:28 PM   #55
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Default Speculation about why the next gen STI was delayed till 2022 at the earliest.

It will likely have some sort of price increase, who knows to what degree.

I would think ~$40k would be their target.

Last edited by Ozo; 08-04-2020 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:55 PM   #56
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I am not very hopeful, but would love to see a dual clutch trans for the WRX and STI. Hopefully mounted to a closed deck version of the FA24 for the STI. Tons of parts will carry over, it could be cost effective at around 400Hp, and a ~40K base price.
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:56 AM   #57
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Default Just WRX?

Changing the WRX engine from the FA20 to the FA24 in similar tune should give about 320HP.

The gearbox might need an upgrade, but Subaru already has the STI gearbox on the shelf.

The clutch was upgraded in 2018, so that would likely be OK.

A 320HP WRX for around $30K would be quite attractive.
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Old 08-05-2020, 08:16 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozo View Post
It will likely have some sort of price increase, who knows to what degree.

I would think ~$40k would be their target.
I would be game at a 40K STI if Subaru can deliver:

1) An engine that doesn't blow up.
2) A legitimate increase in HP/TQ (375HP/TQ sounds like a good number)
3) 8K redline (i know, wishful thinking)
4) Advancement in AWD (more rwd bias, tq vectoring, better LSD, etc)
5) Luxury like interior aka Mazda. Gone are promises of M3 level interior material quality (notice I said quality, not reliability)

Bring on the comments, e.g. Can't deliver a Ferrari at the price of Honda Civic
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:00 AM   #59
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I would be game at a 40K STI if Subaru can deliver:

1) An engine that doesn't blow up.
2) A legitimate increase in HP/TQ (375HP/TQ sounds like a good number)
3) 8K redline (i know, wishful thinking)
4) Advancement in AWD (more rwd bias, tq vectoring, better LSD, etc)
5) Luxury like interior aka Mazda. Gone are promises of M3 level interior material quality (notice I said quality, not reliability)

Bring on the comments, e.g. Can't deliver a Ferrari at the price of Honda Civic
Count me in camp "they'll be insane to price it over 40k, and I see no reason why they would have to."

I'm thinking 1 and 2 are ok, 3: I'm with you there but will not hold breath, 4: will sound like it from marketing info but I fear it will be downgraded, 5: haha, ha.

The uncertainty around when it will come is a bummer, but I have resolved to keep my car another 4-5 years so my chips are out anyhow. Just overhauled the thing and made my own 2021 WRX
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:13 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode View Post
I would be game at a 40K STI if Subaru can deliver:

1) An engine that doesn't blow up.
2) A legitimate increase in HP/TQ (375HP/TQ sounds like a good number)
3) 8K redline (i know, wishful thinking)
4) Advancement in AWD (more rwd bias, tq vectoring, better LSD, etc)
5) Luxury like interior aka Mazda. Gone are promises of M3 level interior material quality (notice I said quality, not reliability)

Bring on the comments, e.g. Can't deliver a Ferrari at the price of Honda Civic
Challenge accepted!!!



You want more HP, More Reliability, Higher redline, more advance AWD tech, a better interior for the same money they are currently charging? Dude.

I predict the next STI will easily reach mid 40's if not high 40's when loaded.

The car that really matters is the WRX. If the WRX gets the FA24 and it gets about 270-285 HP which it theoretically could it will be a dang bargain in the 35-40k region assuming an universal increase in fit and finish we should be able to expect.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:14 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
If they ever got to the point where the STI wasnt their flagship performance car and thought they didnt need it anymore they would probably just sell the entire company to Ford or GM or something LOL. The STI is a highly sought after performance car all around the world and especially in the U.S.

As for just dropping the STI and turning the WRX into a catalog parts car? Thats one of the weirdest things I have read on any subaru site. FYI there has been SPT performance parts catalogs available at Subaru parts depts forever...for the WRX and the STI. The Addition of the Type RA parts and the S209 parts being available and the "Series edition" WRX's and STI means all those parts are available individially as well. So the catalogue parts have always been availble for upgrades and the STI has never skipped a beat....so its not really an idea that has any merit to just drop the STI because parts are available for the WRX. I think if that ever happened they would just drop both....and stick with economy super mileage hybrids and the STI and WRX would be gone.

Subaru beat the evo with the EVO flagship no longer in production, the Focus RS took a big dump in the pants as well. The STI is still the king. Not going anywhere.
SPT performance parts have always and will alway be a joke. They were a complete shame and a shameless cash grab. I did not see new SPT tunes or downpipes or turbos on offer. STI could sell complete COBB like stage improvement kits under warranty. That would sell. Well I least I think they would sell.

Ford did it with the Mountune.

As for the the STI beating the EVO. The EVO was a better performance car universally than the STI. But the STI was better day to day. The STI did not beat the EVO, Subaru with its outbacks and foresters beat Mitsubishis completely rubbish product line. Ford had a Great car in the RS, which was also a superior performance car to the STI, but Ford Quality was not apparently Job one on that. However, Ford could have fixed that easy enough, but Ford chose to end it with its complete surrendering of the car market. STI did not beat the RS or the EVO. Pre had an RS and he can speak to how fun that car was to drive.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:27 AM   #62
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Ford did not end the RS. The RS has always been made at the end of a Focus lifecycle run for 2 years. The Mk1, 2 or 3, 2 model years, that's it. It's a specialty model for Ford Performance/Ford Europe. It will be back in a few years at the end of the new Focus model's lifecycle, but doubtful the US will get it unless Ford US changes its stance on passenger cars. And it's likely to be a hybrid.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:34 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Ford did not end the RS. The RS has always been made at the end of a Focus lifecycle run for 2 years. The Mk1, 2 or 3, 2 model years, that's it. It's a specialty model for Ford Performance/Ford Europe. It will be back in a few years at the end of the new Focus model's lifecycle, but doubtful the US will get it unless Ford US changes its stance on passenger cars. And it's likely to be a hybrid.
that is a good clarification, Pre. Thanks.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:43 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Challenge accepted!!!



You want more HP, More Reliability, Higher redline, more advance AWD tech, a better interior for the same money they are currently charging? Dude.
Many cars offer all of the above, with only a $1000-$2000 increase in price. There's no reason to think Subaru can't.

In reality, if Subaru could offer an STI that performed as well as the first US model but wasn't (1) unreliable and (2) crappy inside it would be the best STI ever made. That doesn't seem to be too much to ask in 2020.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:44 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
but doubtful the US will get it unless Ford US changes its stance on passenger cars.
Ford just ousted their CEO. That might just happen.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:52 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Challenge accepted!!!



You want more HP, More Reliability, Higher redline, more advance AWD tech, a better interior for the same money they are currently charging? Dude.

I predict the next STI will easily reach mid 40's if not high 40's when loaded.

The car that really matters is the WRX. If the WRX gets the FA24 and it gets about 270-285 HP which it theoretically could it will be a dang bargain in the 35-40k region assuming an universal increase in fit and finish we should be able to expect.
To be fair, Subaru should have been making money hand over fist on every STi sold, considering all the heavy engineering was done in the '90s and '00s. Even the VA chassis has been around 5 years at this point. They should be able to afford to invest in design.
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Old 08-05-2020, 11:11 AM   #67
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To be fair, Subaru should have been making money hand over fist on every STi sold, considering all the heavy engineering was done in the '90s and '00s. Even the VA chassis has been around 5 years at this point. They should be able to afford to invest in design.
Also remember that their definition of new design is to save all of the files on their computer with a new file name, which is probably what will happen here again with exception of sheet metal and engine (that's fine)
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Old 08-05-2020, 12:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
To be fair, Subaru should have been making money hand over fist on every STi sold, considering all the heavy engineering was done in the '90s and '00s. Even the VA chassis has been around 5 years at this point. They should be able to afford to invest in design.
I would not be surprised if they didn't make much money at all.. Also their imagination as a company appear to be very limited as they are a small company and their only performance arm (leg?) appears to be STI..(?)

I know Japanese folks very well.. individually they have many desires, but are very conservative to speak up, won't take big risks unless everyone is onboard.. which results in a lot of inefficiencies to get anything done.
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Old 08-05-2020, 01:06 PM   #69
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For a DD, I love that it is automatic. Like I said, I live in the city and have a bumper to bumper commute in and out every day (when life is normal). And my wife can drive it so I don't have to back it out of the driveway so she can get her car. But it simply is not fun. Once I have the space I will sell it, get a POS civic and a fun weekend car that is extremely manual. I now firmly believe you can't have both, it can be automatic OR it can be fun. I tried to have both, I flew too close to the sun.

pedal commander will do wonders for your car, night and day difference on my macan
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Old 08-05-2020, 02:20 PM   #70
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I think COVID is the simplest and most likely answer for the delay. No need to rush a new model into a down market or tie up factory space retooling when you have had unscheduled shutdowns and can't get enough product out the door. My predictions:

Both cars (WRX and STI) will get FA24 variants, but the STI will have a bigger turbo and different heads tuned for performance higher in the power band. WRX will have ~300hp and STI ~350. WRX will either have the CVT from the Ascent (perhaps with mild tuning) or 6 old speed. STI will carry forward the same 6 speed. STI will get LSDs with DCCD and WRX will stay open. This means Subaru isn't developing any completely new drivetrain components, just integrating existing (much cheaper). Relatively minor chassis tweaks from the VA with a redesigned interior.

The above provides a reasonable performance boost for both cars while minimizing costs and allowing more components to be shared between models. WRX will start around $30k (probably $29,900 base, close to $40k fully loaded) and STI around $40k ( probably $39,900, close to $50k fully loaded). Price bump in line with inflation, but not new bracket. Keep in mind that the STI has actually gone down in price relative to inflation over the years.
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Old 08-05-2020, 02:44 PM   #71
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I have said this for years, but I will reiterate this now. They should completely kill off the STI. They are not into any kind of rally that people care about anyway, so the need for an STI WRX is pointless.

What they should do is Sell the WRX, but offer a whole batch of STI performance parts that you can have installed and under warranty. From Inverted Bilstiens to larger Turbos, to 6 pots, the works, can be had and added to your WRX. Offer them in packages. WRX with the STI performance package. All installed by the dealer and all under warranty. No need to have two models at all. They will make a killing off the parts and only need to keep the FA24 in the WRX.

The STI will never compete with the Supra, Mustang GT, or Camaro SS, or 911. If they try to make it do that it will be north of 50k dollars which is crazy money for an econobox. The affordable everymans, supercar is what the WRX was meant be. Ford has an accessory catalog 3" thick for the Bronco, the WRX should have one too.

end rant
Doesn't matter if they are actually racing the car in production rally, the car is just antiquated as ****, looks ugly and has outdated performance. Give it a fancy DI making 360hp in manual and make it a sweet looking widebody hatch.

The last few generation of sedans have been vomit styling.
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Old 08-05-2020, 03:48 PM   #72
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Doesn't matter if they are actually racing the car in production rally, the car is just antiquated as ****, looks ugly and has outdated performance. Give it a fancy DI making 360hp in manual and make it a sweet looking widebody hatch.

The last few generation of sedans have been vomit styling.
It's not even like it used to be a fast car and all the competition caught up. In actuality, it used to be a fast car and then it got substantially slower.
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Old 08-05-2020, 04:03 PM   #73
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It's not even like it used to be a fast car and all the competition caught up. In actuality, it used to be a fast car and then it got substantially slower.
Substantially slower? It gained all of 200lbs between 2004 and 2020 (along with better chassis rigidity) and kept the same motor.

The real story is the competition caught up and surpassed. In 2004 the Mustang GT had 260 hp, the STI had 300. In 2020, the Mustang GT has 460hp (albeit with an extra 400lbs) but the STI still has 300.

The main issue is Subaru is a relatively small company that is never going to sell the volume of the competition on the performance side. Drivetrains are expensive to develop.
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Old 08-05-2020, 04:11 PM   #74
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Substantially slower? It gained all of 200lbs between 2004 and 2020 (along with better chassis rigidity) and kept the same motor.

The real story is the competition caught up and surpassed. In 2004 the Mustang GT had 260 hp, the STI had 300. In 2020, the Mustang GT has 460hp (albeit with an extra 400lbs) but the STI still has 300.

The main issue is Subaru is a relatively small company that is never going to sell the volume of the competition on the performance side. Drivetrains are expensive to develop.
Correct. Europe is no longer a market for the STI so the investment for 25000 cars a year is big.
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Old 08-05-2020, 04:16 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by nealric View Post
I think COVID is the simplest and most likely answer for the delay. No need to rush a new model into a down market or tie up factory space retooling when you have had unscheduled shutdowns and can't get enough product out the door. My predictions:

Both cars (WRX and STI) will get FA24 variants, but the STI will have a bigger turbo and different heads tuned for performance higher in the power band. WRX will have ~300hp and STI ~350. WRX will either have the CVT from the Ascent (perhaps with mild tuning) or 6 old speed. STI will carry forward the same 6 speed. STI will get LSDs with DCCD and WRX will stay open. This means Subaru isn't developing any completely new drivetrain components, just integrating existing (much cheaper). Relatively minor chassis tweaks from the VA with a redesigned interior.

The above provides a reasonable performance boost for both cars while minimizing costs and allowing more components to be shared between models. WRX will start around $30k (probably $29,900 base, close to $40k fully loaded) and STI around $40k ( probably $39,900, close to $50k fully loaded). Price bump in line with inflation, but not new bracket. Keep in mind that the STI has actually gone down in price relative to inflation over the years.

I think you are very close here on all points if I am honest. This is the thing, the more HP the WRX makes the less sense it makes to have an STI. Lets say they kept the STI making 50 more HP than the WRX. This is an extreme example so lets just play along.

a 50 HP WRX vs 100 HP STI --- STI will be easily the faster car by a long shot and feel better. 100% more power

A 200 HP WRX vs 250 HP STI --- Still will feel livelier but both will be 'quick' with the STI being clearly more fun. 25% more power

300 HP WRX vs 350 HP STI --- Both cars will be 'fast' but the STI may feel a bit livelier somewhere in the power band but likely worse elsewhere. 17% more power

The more HP you make the less 50 HP will make any difference. Plus at some point the 2.4L engine will need to rev more to make more HP or need a bigger turbo for more boost, which will mean it will not come on until higher up in the RPM band which may mean living with lag or needing to be revved to make power.


Without its own engine an gearing and tuning the STI will lose its advantage to the WRX with every iteration until the extra money is not worth it. Some may view this as a bad thing, but I view it as the WRX getting better and better which is a good thing.

I welcome comments and criticisms
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