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Old 09-27-2020, 05:16 PM   #751
haa-yup!
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These rationales are worse than rope. Because when people start saying they need to have freedoms for emergencies then you have to open up the systems and make them more vulnerable to bad operators or unauthorized ones. If such situations exist, they should not be used for human occupancy. Redundant systems are one thing, but once we are in the realm of Burger King, you are inviting problems.
care to share your aviation experience/background?
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:33 PM   #752
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Yeah...especially if your systems 'knowledge' is wrong.
That's my point. If you're going to deviate from a checklist based on your system knowledge, you are increasing the variables that will determine the outcome of a situation. You may think your knowledge is sound, but are you really remembering that system correctly? Does the system actually work the way your manual tells you it does? Did they change the system since you learned it? Are you distracting yourself from more critical actions?

I'm all for knowing the airplane inside and out. I also understand the importance of going off-script when the need arises. But if there's a set procedure that applies, I do not see the benefit in willfully deviating from it.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:42 PM   #753
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That's my point. If you're going to deviate from a checklist based on your system knowledge, you are increasing the variables that will determine the outcome of a situation. You may think your knowledge is sound, but are you really remembering that system correctly? Does the system actually work the way your manual tells you it does? Did they change the system since you learned it? Are you distracting yourself from more critical actions?

I'm all for knowing the airplane inside and out. I also understand the importance of going off-script when the need arises. But if there's a set procedure that applies, I do not see the benefit in willfully deviating from it.
I'm not familiar with the Kegworth details, and wiki offered no real insight...did they reference a checklist and deviate? Or just start doing stuff?
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:20 PM   #754
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care to share your aviation experience/background?
I was a nuke et for 8 years and a systems engineer at a large firm for the last 14, with most of my roles in test and validation.
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:54 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by Ken-Ohki View Post
These rationales are worse than rope. Because when people start saying they need to have freedoms for emergencies then you have to open up the systems and make them more vulnerable to bad operators or unauthorized ones. If such situations exist, they should not be used for human occupancy. Redundant systems are one thing, but once we are in the realm of Burger King, you are inviting problems.

Since you’re a nuke, I understand your sentiment.

Applying it to aviation is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samb View Post
That's my point. If you're going to deviate from a checklist based on your system knowledge, you are increasing the variables that will determine the outcome of a situation. You may think your knowledge is sound, but are you really remembering that system correctly? Does the system actually work the way your manual tells you it does? Did they change the system since you learned it? Are you distracting yourself from more critical actions?



I'm all for knowing the airplane inside and out. I also understand the importance of going off-script when the need arises. But if there's a set procedure that applies, I do not see the benefit in willfully deviating from it.

No one is saying people should be making up procedures on the fly for known emergencies. But blindly following a checklist does not replace systems knowledge. It’s lazy and unfortunately what 121 operators are going towards because training costs money.

Checklists get revised ALL THE TIME. We’re always updating emergency procedures.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:14 AM   #756
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Gotcha. I think we share similar philosophies and I misinterpreted what you had written earlier.
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Old 11-18-2020, 08:51 AM   #757
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WASHINGTON, Nov 18 (Reuters) - U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) chief Steve Dickson is "100% confident" in the safety of the Boeing 737 MAX but says the airplane maker has more to do as it works to improve its safety culture.

Dickson on Wednesday signed an order to allow the best-selling plane to resume flights after it was grounded worldwide in March 2019 following two crashes that killed 346 people and led to Boeing's biggest crisis in decades.

The order will end the longest grounding in commercial aviation history and paves the way for Boeing to resume U.S. deliveries and commercial flights by the end of the year.

"We've done everything humanly possible to make sure" these types of crashes do not happen again," FAA Administrator Dickson told Reuters in a 30-minute telephone interview, adding the design changes "have eliminated what caused these particular accidents."

The FAA is requiring new training to deal with a key safety system called MCAS that is faulted for the two fatal crashes as well as significant new safeguards and other software changes.

"I feel 100% confident," said Dickson, a former airline and military pilot, who took over as FAA administration in August 2019 and took the controls for a 737 MAX test flight in September.

In a video message released on Wednesday, he said that the 20-month review was "long and grueling, but we said from the start that we would take the time necessary to get this right."

Dickson said he emphasized to Boeing the importance of safety. "I understand they have a business to run but they don't have anything if they don't have a safe product," Dickson said.

Dickson suggested Boeing has more to do to improve safety.

"They have taken some actions, but it's going to take more then putting new processes in place and moving boxes around the organization chart. Cultural changes take a long time to take effect and we've got to be skeptical," he said.

Boeing said it is "committed to learning from our mistakes to build a safer future so accidents like this never happen again."

The FAA has also come under harsh criticism over its certification of the 737 MAX. The U.S. House of Representatives approved a reform measure on Tuesday of the FAA's aircraft certification program.

Representative Peter DeFazio, a Democrat who chairs the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said the FAA failed to properly ensure the safety of the 737 MAX, and called aircraft certification "a broken system that broke the public’s trust."

Dickson acknowledged there was fragmented communication within the FAA and between the FAA and Boeing during the 737 MAX certification. He noted the agency is adopting certification reforms and improvements in response to outside reviews of the 737 MAX certification.

The FAA could take new enforcement actions or issue new civil penalties against Boeing over the 737 MAX and on other issues stemming from a 2014 settlement agreement, but Dickson did not elaborate.

"It's a matter of our review of what Boeing's actions have been up to this point," Dickson said. "There is going to be more that we'll be able to talk about that in the coming weeks and months."

The MCAS, or Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, is designed to help counter a tendency for the nose of the 737 MAX to rise up, known as a pitch up, and it could be activated after data received from one of two sensors.

Boeing says inputs from both sensors on the MAX will be used after the updates but the European Union Aviation Safety Agency has called for a third synthetic sensor to provide independently computed data. Dickson said the FAA will consider requiring that synthetic sensor in future 737 MAX versions, but has made no decisions.

Dickson said he said expects other international regulators will "complete their work within a relatively short period of time." (Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Christian Schmollinger)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/faa-chief-100-confident-737-123703217.html
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Old 01-09-2021, 11:35 PM   #758
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https://apnews.com/a2461f1a0dfa2d726645c64e2b42a77c

So yeah, a few weeks after the first 737 flight again and we have another crash...
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Old 01-09-2021, 11:47 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by blue-sun View Post
https://apnews.com/a2461f1a0dfa2d726645c64e2b42a77c

So yeah, a few weeks after the first 737 flight again and we have another crash...
Which would be relevant if it was a MAX, but it’s not. It’s a 25 year old 737-500 operated by a third world airline.
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Old 01-09-2021, 11:53 PM   #760
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Was about to say the same thing. Still probably cast more negative light on the 737 MAX in any case.
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Old 01-10-2021, 09:32 AM   #761
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Was about to say the same thing. Still probably cast more negative light on the 737 MAX in any case.
not really. while we know there were serious problems with the max, there are also serious problems with the indonesian culture with respect to avation operations
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Old 01-10-2021, 09:48 AM   #762
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You've got crews up there flying these things that have a couple hundred hours of jet time between the two of them. Everything goes well if the weather's good, nothing breaks, and the A/P is on until just before the flare.
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Old 01-10-2021, 10:12 AM   #763
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Was about to say the same thing. Still probably cast more negative light on the 737 MAX in any case.
That's what the media is hoping!
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Old 09-20-2021, 02:52 AM   #764
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New Frontline documentary on the fiasco:
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:19 PM   #765
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New Frontline documentary on the fiasco:
https://youtu.be/wXMO0bhPhCw
I will be watching that later tonight!
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:43 PM   #766
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Spoiler alert: Boeing still blames dumb pilots for the crashes.
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Old 09-20-2021, 03:48 PM   #767
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Spoiler alert: Boeing still blames dumb pilots for the crashes.
I'll give Frontline the benefit of the doubt. They are one of the few that still go out of their way to present multiple sides of an issue.

But sure, Boeing is going to take that position to the grave, even as their own employees get prosecuted over their roles.
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Old 09-20-2021, 04:40 PM   #768
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Airplanes shouldn't want to crash themselves and not every airline pilot out there is Chesley Sullenberger.
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Old 09-20-2021, 08:21 PM   #769
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"Boeing declined to be interviewed for this film."

Yes, I bet they did.
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Old 09-21-2021, 02:50 AM   #770
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The pilots were a factor, but Boeing put in automation without making it clear what it did or how to over-ride it. It's like blaming a guy for stepping on a landmine while holding the map.
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:05 PM   #771
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And the automation had single points of failure and was also miscatagorized purposely as to what type of system it was (hazardous vs catastrophic in the system safety analysis). If it was categorized correctly, single points of failure would not be allowed. Redundancy became a paid option.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

There is also a big problem with safety engineering. Most of the people who are good at it and stand their ground vs management are old and dying off. They also tend to be so negative and outraged, that it is hard to communicate with them and find solutions (they flag problems but dont help resolve them).

Last edited by Ken-Ohki; 09-21-2021 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 09-21-2021, 01:09 PM   #772
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I didn't realize in one of the flights, the pilot did the right thing (turned off the breakers to the stabilizer/MCAS), and tried to trim it manually with the wheel, but at that point their air speed was too high, so the weren't able to manually turn the wheel.

Then they turned the stabilizer back on, so it nosedived even harder
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:56 PM   #773
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I didn't realize in one of the flights, the pilot did the right thing (turned off the breakers to the stabilizer/MCAS), and tried to trim it manually with the wheel, but at that point their air speed was too high, so the weren't able to manually turn the wheel.

Then they turned the stabilizer back on, so it nosedived even harder
Yeah, you can lose track of stuff when juggling your workload. In that case it was their airspeed, which might not have even been on their mind. I'm curious how many pilots have ever used that wheel.
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Old 10-14-2021, 08:36 PM   #774
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...aud/ar-AAPx7FB

Can someone explain this to me like I am an idiot?
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:05 PM   #775
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...aud/ar-AAPx7FB

Can someone explain this to me like I am an idiot?
Which part, specifically?
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