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12-20-2021, 01:33 PM | #1 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
Ej Oil Pump Data 11mm vs 12mm vs Shimmed
We've done a LOT of oiling system testing over the last couple months. One of those sets of tests was based on different oil pumps.
We ran all new OEM pumps, 10mm, 11mm, and 12mm. Then again with 2 shims added. All pumps were disassembled, inspected for proper action, and reassembled. This was all done on our 2019 STi shop mule; Built & Sleeved KBM spec engine with a Garrett GTX3576-R, on E85, with all supporting mods. On a conservative tune. The car makes just under 500whp on our low reading Mustang dyno. Oil flow was measured at the oil filter pad and oil pressure taken at the OEM pressure switch location. Testing procedures that we use provide very consistent repeatable feedback. The plots have been simplified, and we're not showing 10mm data because it makes the plots even more cluttered. We do have the data, and as crazy as it may sound to run a 10mm pump on a DAVCS engine, we did it anyway. Those results were actually VERY close to the 11mm, and in some areas of the curve, better. Although, due to load load flow requirements with DAVCS engines, I would not recommend running a 10mm unless you've removed AVCS to some extent and/or made changes to reduce oiling requirements (journal bearing to ball bearing turbo for example). All testing was done with Motul 15w-50 at 225°. All pumps bypass a significant volume; 40-60%, with the smaller pumps bypassing less, and the larger pumps more. Adding 2 Shims to each pump made improvements to pressure and flow, but not a lot. I would recommend adding shims for the added pressure/flow benefit, but am concerned with bypass spring longevity due to potentially over-compressing. With a track car being serviced regularly and only operating in warm temp ranges, the safety of that improves. The short of it is, the pump the engine came with is the one to go with
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Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 12-21-2021 at 06:24 AM. |
12-20-2021, 01:36 PM | #2 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: Fort Lupton, CO
Vehicle:2012 STi SWP |
Very interesting data.
You and I had a discussion over PM's about the 12mm and I went against it for my STi. My clearances are pretty wide, and I added 1 shim to my 11mm pump and noticed it bumped PSI by ~5 psi, which I'm happy with. Thanks for the testing! |
12-20-2021, 02:09 PM | #3 | |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
Quote:
A lot of little nuances can come into play when building these engines in regards to clearances, and I think a lot of us (myself included) can overthink that. Testing showed even the small 10mm pump performed well, with plenty of bypass flow to spare! No problem! We have a lot more coming |
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12-20-2021, 03:26 PM | #4 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 112759
Join Date: Apr 2006
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: In the V hole!
Vehicle:2015 Stock OEM AsFu* 3.6r OMG S.C'd |
What were your clearances set@?
Rods? Mains? Std sizes? Wouldn't that affect readings( Obviously along w/ location but that's been addressed) I understand this wasn't meant to be detailed specific, but if you post them ( the clearances) , then we can say xx amount of pressure is achieved when running these clearances @ such & such RPM. People would probably grasp it better ( as long as I explained it correctly LOL) Last edited by sense of nature; 12-20-2021 at 05:21 PM. |
12-21-2021, 06:23 AM | #5 | |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
Quote:
To answer your question the mains are .0007 +/-.0001, rods .0020-00022. The engine does also use a CNC billet crank that has improved oiling to the rods vs OEM. For 99% of built engines out there (including this one), changes from the factory clearances add up to next to nothing. It takes a significant deviation to affect oil pressure even a small amount. Also of note, all testing was done with Motul 15w-50 at 225°. |
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01-17-2022, 01:56 PM | #6 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
Bumping for PSA.
We still keep getting questions on this, and still have people asking us about running the 12mm in their builds. Save your money! |
03-02-2022, 10:47 AM | #7 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
One last PSA for the winter build guys prepping for spring events. We tend to be quiet during the spring-time rush, but if anyone has any questions, shoot us a PM or e-mail.
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03-02-2022, 11:27 AM | #8 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 25768
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: CO springs
Vehicle:2003 XONA 9569S 40++ 2.3 slobaru |
have you ever tested the RCM pumps for bypass pressure?
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03-02-2022, 01:02 PM | #9 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
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03-27-2022, 11:31 AM | #10 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
Anyone have any questions as we're about to head into the race season?
We're here to answer |
06-02-2022, 01:52 PM | #11 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
Bumping because we're getting a lot of repeat questions.
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06-02-2022, 04:13 PM | #12 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 491095
Join Date: Sep 2018
Chapter/Region:
SWIC
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle:2009 STi Blue Blue |
at what point should you replace your pump? Just had motor quit at 180k, no oiling issues and pump appears to be in good shape, and cannot find a good answer via google...rule of thumb i had previously used what do it when rebuilding, but wanted your perspective!
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06-02-2022, 04:31 PM | #13 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
At that mileage I'd just replace the pump. If you don't want to, the Factory Service Manual contains wear limits for each pump that you can measure and check to see if it's within service limits. At that mileage though, I'd bet at least a couple area are going to be beyond the service wear limits.
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06-06-2022, 02:41 PM | #14 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 13530
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Cascadia
Vehicle:EA63 , EA81T, EJ20G, EJ205 |
@killerBmotorsports
Have you given this a listen yet? <div style="display: none;" id="ame_noshow_post_1654540901_2"> <a href="" title="YouTube" target="_blank">YouTube</a> </div> <div style="display: inline;" id="ame_doshow_post_1654540901_2"> <div align="left"> <table class="tborder" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="425" style="margin:10px 0"> <thead> <tr> <td class="tcat" colspan="2" style="text-align:center"> <a href="" title="YouTube" target="_blank">YouTube</a> </td> </tr> </thead> <tbody> <tr> <td class="panelsurround" align="center"> <iframe width="425" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4CVRof7wI9M?start=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table></div> </div> I'd be interested in your take on some of the oiling topics discussed (had no idea they were running Miller cycle either!). Granted, they're running proprietary head castings these days, but it sounds like they essentially cut off the oil supply to the exhaust cams/buckets, now rely on splash lubing, and supplemented by DLC on the buckets. |
06-06-2022, 02:41 PM | #15 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 13530
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Cascadia
Vehicle:EA63 , EA81T, EJ20G, EJ205 |
@killerBmotorsports
Have you given this a listen yet? I'd be interested in your take on some of the oiling topics discussed (had no idea they were running Miller cycle either!). Granted, they're running proprietary head castings these days, but it sounds like they essentially cut off the oil supply to the exhaust cams/buckets, now rely on splash lubing, and supplemented by DLC on the buckets. |
06-07-2022, 05:49 PM | #16 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 491095
Join Date: Sep 2018
Chapter/Region:
SWIC
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle:2009 STi Blue Blue |
Quote:
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06-08-2022, 07:54 AM | #17 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:2005 WRX/STi WRB of course |
VSC is doing things very different.
Their engine development program has led them down the path to where they are today, but keep in mind their application is extremely specific. Aside from VSC there are a select few others have done external passage oiling to get around the internal passage geometry, and to improve oiling. I've never personally taken part in the testing, aside from a consulting standpoint. IMO if you're building an engine from scratch, the block's oiling can be improved to accommodate 99.9% of the applications out there. I will follow this up by saying 95% of the applications out there, don't require any modification, aside from assuring proper cleanliness and function. |
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