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Old 12-20-2021, 01:33 PM   #1
KillerBMotorsport
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Default Ej Oil Pump Data 11mm vs 12mm vs Shimmed

We've done a LOT of oiling system testing over the last couple months. One of those sets of tests was based on different oil pumps.

We ran all new OEM pumps, 10mm, 11mm, and 12mm. Then again with 2 shims added. All pumps were disassembled, inspected for proper action, and reassembled. This was all done on our 2019 STi shop mule; Built & Sleeved KBM spec engine with a Garrett GTX3576-R, on E85, with all supporting mods. On a conservative tune. The car makes just under 500whp on our low reading Mustang dyno.

Oil flow was measured at the oil filter pad and oil pressure taken at the OEM pressure switch location. Testing procedures that we use provide very consistent repeatable feedback.

The plots have been simplified, and we're not showing 10mm data because it makes the plots even more cluttered. We do have the data, and as crazy as it may sound to run a 10mm pump on a DAVCS engine, we did it anyway. Those results were actually VERY close to the 11mm, and in some areas of the curve, better. Although, due to load load flow requirements with DAVCS engines, I would not recommend running a 10mm unless you've removed AVCS to some extent and/or made changes to reduce oiling requirements (journal bearing to ball bearing turbo for example). All testing was done with Motul 15w-50 at 225°.

All pumps bypass a significant volume; 40-60%, with the smaller pumps bypassing less, and the larger pumps more. Adding 2 Shims to each pump made improvements to pressure and flow, but not a lot. I would recommend adding shims for the added pressure/flow benefit, but am concerned with bypass spring longevity due to potentially over-compressing. With a track car being serviced regularly and only operating in warm temp ranges, the safety of that improves.

The short of it is, the pump the engine came with is the one to go with



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Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 12-21-2021 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 12-20-2021, 01:36 PM   #2
Waddlz
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Very interesting data.

You and I had a discussion over PM's about the 12mm and I went against it for my STi. My clearances are pretty wide, and I added 1 shim to my 11mm pump and noticed it bumped PSI by ~5 psi, which I'm happy with.

Thanks for the testing!
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Old 12-20-2021, 02:09 PM   #3
KillerBMotorsport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
Very interesting data.

You and I had a discussion over PM's about the 12mm and I went against it for my STi. My clearances are pretty wide, and I added 1 shim to my 11mm pump and noticed it bumped PSI by ~5 psi, which I'm happy with.

Thanks for the testing!
It's one of those things where the math says 'stick with the OEM pump' and that's what I've always recommended. Now we KNOW

A lot of little nuances can come into play when building these engines in regards to clearances, and I think a lot of us (myself included) can overthink that. Testing showed even the small 10mm pump performed well, with plenty of bypass flow to spare!

No problem! We have a lot more coming
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Old 12-20-2021, 03:26 PM   #4
sense of nature
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What were your clearances set@?
Rods?
Mains?
Std sizes?
Wouldn't that affect readings( Obviously along w/ location but that's been addressed)
I understand this wasn't meant to be detailed specific, but if you post them ( the clearances) , then we can say xx amount of pressure is achieved when running these clearances @ such & such RPM.
People would probably grasp it better ( as long as I explained it correctly LOL)

Last edited by sense of nature; 12-20-2021 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 12-21-2021, 06:23 AM   #5
KillerBMotorsport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sense of nature View Post
What were your clearances set@?
Rods?
Mains?
Std sizes?
Wouldn't that affect readings( Obviously along w/ location but that's been addressed)
I understand this wasn't meant to be detailed specific, but if you post them ( the clearances) , then we can say xx amount of pressure is achieved when running these clearances @ such & such RPM.
People would probably grasp it better ( as long as I explained it correctly LOL)
KBM spec blocks are blue printed, which means the split gets decked, line bored, and all geometry after that (bores, head surfaces, etc.) are made true to the main bore.

To answer your question the mains are .0007 +/-.0001, rods .0020-00022. The engine does also use a CNC billet crank that has improved oiling to the rods vs OEM.

For 99% of built engines out there (including this one), changes from the factory clearances add up to next to nothing. It takes a significant deviation to affect oil pressure even a small amount.

Also of note, all testing was done with Motul 15w-50 at 225°.
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Old 01-17-2022, 01:56 PM   #6
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Bumping for PSA.

We still keep getting questions on this, and still have people asking us about running the 12mm in their builds. Save your money!
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Old 03-02-2022, 10:47 AM   #7
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One last PSA for the winter build guys prepping for spring events. We tend to be quiet during the spring-time rush, but if anyone has any questions, shoot us a PM or e-mail.
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Old 03-02-2022, 11:27 AM   #8
stu
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have you ever tested the RCM pumps for bypass pressure?
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Old 03-02-2022, 01:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
have you ever tested the RCM pumps for bypass pressure?
No, but based on all their other Suby oiling products, it's a Cosworth knock-off... So scuff the internal surfaces, add a shim, etch the logo, mark up, and market.
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Old 03-27-2022, 11:31 AM   #10
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Anyone have any questions as we're about to head into the race season?

We're here to answer
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Old 06-02-2022, 01:52 PM   #11
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Bumping because we're getting a lot of repeat questions.
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Old 06-02-2022, 04:13 PM   #12
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at what point should you replace your pump? Just had motor quit at 180k, no oiling issues and pump appears to be in good shape, and cannot find a good answer via google...rule of thumb i had previously used what do it when rebuilding, but wanted your perspective!
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Old 06-02-2022, 04:31 PM   #13
KillerBMotorsport
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At that mileage I'd just replace the pump. If you don't want to, the Factory Service Manual contains wear limits for each pump that you can measure and check to see if it's within service limits. At that mileage though, I'd bet at least a couple area are going to be beyond the service wear limits.
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Old 06-06-2022, 02:41 PM   #14
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@killerBmotorsports

Have you given this a listen yet? <div style="display: none;" id="ame_noshow_post_1654540901_2">
<a href="" title="YouTube" target="_blank">YouTube</a>
</div>
<div style="display: inline;" id="ame_doshow_post_1654540901_2">
<div align="left">
<table class="tborder" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="425" style="margin:10px 0">
<thead>
<tr>
<td class="tcat" colspan="2" style="text-align:center">
<a href="" title="YouTube" target="_blank">YouTube</a>
</td>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class="panelsurround" align="center">
<iframe width="425" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4CVRof7wI9M?start=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table></div>
</div>
I'd be interested in your take on some of the oiling topics discussed (had no idea they were running Miller cycle either!).

Granted, they're running proprietary head castings these days, but it sounds like they essentially cut off the oil supply to the exhaust cams/buckets, now rely on splash lubing, and supplemented by DLC on the buckets.
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Old 06-06-2022, 02:41 PM   #15
car_freak85
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@killerBmotorsports

Have you given this a listen yet?

I'd be interested in your take on some of the oiling topics discussed (had no idea they were running Miller cycle either!).

Granted, they're running proprietary head castings these days, but it sounds like they essentially cut off the oil supply to the exhaust cams/buckets, now rely on splash lubing, and supplemented by DLC on the buckets.
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Old 06-07-2022, 05:49 PM   #16
Jedi03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
At that mileage I'd just replace the pump. If you don't want to, the Factory Service Manual contains wear limits for each pump that you can measure and check to see if it's within service limits. At that mileage though, I'd bet at least a couple area are going to be beyond the service wear limits.
copy and thank you as always KillerB!
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Old 06-08-2022, 07:54 AM   #17
KillerBMotorsport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
@killerBmotorsports

Have you given this a listen yet?
VSC is doing things very different.

Their engine development program has led them down the path to where they are today, but keep in mind their application is extremely specific.

Aside from VSC there are a select few others have done external passage oiling to get around the internal passage geometry, and to improve oiling. I've never personally taken part in the testing, aside from a consulting standpoint. IMO if you're building an engine from scratch, the block's oiling can be improved to accommodate 99.9% of the applications out there. I will follow this up by saying 95% of the applications out there, don't require any modification, aside from assuring proper cleanliness and function.
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