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Old 04-30-2003, 11:42 AM   #1
ToddStratton
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Default STi Suspension Discussion

Decided to start a new thread about this, hopefully one that will focus on the STi and not a comparison with every other performance car out there...

--------------------------------------------------

quote:Originally posted by JT-KGY
Could someone post the anti-sway bar sizes for USDM STi???



According to another thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=333118 the sizes are:

Front 19mm
Rear 20 mm

Another interesting thing in that the camber is very mild:

front -0.3
rear -0.4

I totally agree with gtguy and Paul Hansen. People are saying
(or implying) the understeer is incurable without even driving it! Those guys are nuts. There are plenty of well setup WRXs around.

The numbers the STi has been turning in are as good or better than any STi (JDM included) I've seen published. Cars with the SAME suretrac front diff, DCCD, and rear lsd appear to drive much more neutrally (from Best Motoring) than reviewers are talking about. So if there is indeed a difference (or is it the "relative" feeling Paul mentioned?), the question should really be--what is different?

I haven't seen a smaller front sway bar for the Impreza but an 18mm may help. I know the first thing I'll do after break-in is get a good alignment and get the front set to -1.1 or -1.2 camber. Adding a larger rear sway bar may be an option for some (depending on what class you want to auto-x in).

Paul, can you verify the sway bar sizes on the JDM STi? Someone with access to the parts catalog should check to see what the part numbers are for the front struts and springs. I bet they are the same as the normal JDM STi.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 02:50 PM   #2
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Todd, thanks for starting this. It took me a while to search and I finally found Jon's post about the suspension geometry -- only to see that you nicely referenced it here.

I see that Rallispec has an 18mm front swaybar for the WRX. Not a huge change, but maybe a little (whether it fits in the STi is another question). As you mention, if we want to stay in stock autocross class, we can't touch the rear bars, only the front. Too bad, as leaving the 19mm fronts and going to 22mm rears might be a preferred option.

I'd be really interested in hearing people's alignment experiences when they get the car (or thoughts now), especially for autocrossing. I have no experience with this sort of thing (I just got Puhn's book which may help my understanding). Hopefully one of the tuners (e.g. Prodrive, Cobb, Vishnu, Rallispec) will come out with a suspension kit. It sounds like it would be really popular (unfortunately, most tuners don't pay attention to autocross classes, not to mention most seem to concentrate on the drag racing giant-laggy-turbo crowd anyway).

Any chance anything could be helped by modifying the struts, such as going to the STi adjustable struts? While I may like the lowering springs as well, that would kick me into street prepared / street modified class. At that point I'd be seriously looking at Praxis, Tein+EDFC, DMS, GAB, etc.

Kind of frustrating -- the car at MSRP, then add stereo, wheels + tires for autocross, better seats, suspension mods -- what's next?
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Old 04-30-2003, 02:56 PM   #3
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19mm and 20mm??

It's already tuned with less understeer than EVO's
24mm and 22mm....???

Sigh... maybe that multi-link rear suspension indeed make that
much difference.
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:14 PM   #4
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Those camber numbers are pretty interesting. I know that my Boxster came with similar numbers, possibly even less, might have been set at zero. Many of the folks on the Boxster board had it reset at -1 or there abouts, and claimed it really transformed the car. I would hope it would have similar result for the Subaru.

Any idea what the EVO comes from the factory set at?

Michael
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:41 PM   #5
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Okay, you've got a real suspension newbie here .... thanks for your patience if you don't mind answering what will probably be a stream of questions. First two --

what are the negative consequences of changes to the negative camber? Tire wear? Or even that?

can't some changes be made through changing air pressure?

(If somewhere else would be a better place to ask basic questions, let me know! Thanks.)
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:42 PM   #6
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Yea, I think changing the front camber will definitely help a ton. It did on my wagon.

If anyone has the information, the stock alignment specs of the JDM cars would also be interesting to have.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by geezer902
Okay, you've got a real suspension newbie here .... thanks for your patience if you don't mind answering what will probably be a stream of questions. First two --

what are the negative consequences of changes to the negative camber? Tire wear? Or even that?

can't some changes be made through changing air pressure?

(If somewhere else would be a better place to ask basic questions, let me know! Thanks.)
Check out the suspension forum, and specifically, the sticky "Threads of note"

Check out the "make your car handle like you want it to" thread, among others.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:53 PM   #8
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As I suspected teh EVO comes from the factory with a more aggressive set up. According to this thread:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...ight=alignment

-1 from the Factory.

Michael
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Old 04-30-2003, 05:40 PM   #9
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Here is another bit of info on the suretrac lsd. This is from the MY01 STi description:
----------------------------------------
The New Impreza WRX STi also comes equipped with front & rear “Suretrac” limited slip differentials. These LSDs respond to a torque differential between left and right wheels transferring the torque from the slip wheel to the non-slip wheel. The benefit is that they only activate under drive and do not respond to differences in left & right wheel cornering speed when coasting. This means that at the limit of adhesion torque is transferred from the inside wheel that is losing traction as a result of weight transfer to the outside that has traction. The effect is to noticeably reduce understeer under hard cornering under engine power. The ‘Suretrac’ LSD function, differs from a conventional differential in that it does not have pinion gears and side gears. In their place are two opposing face cams and nineteen cam followers. The face cams are formed with a series of inclined ramps resembling sharp teeth. One face cam has nine ‘teeth’ the other has ten ‘teeth’. The cam followers have special asymmetrically shaped profiles to match the face cams, and they are splined to the differential case. This means that drive through the differential is via the cam followers to the face cams, and then to the axles. When moving in a straight line, there is no relative speed difference between the face cams, which are splined to the front axles. When cornering with no load, each of the face cams is free to rotate independently from the other. Under this condition, the cam followers oscillate freely from left to right. When torque is applied, the cam followers are forced against the face cams, transmitting driving force to the wheels. If a wheel begins to slip, the relative movement between the two face cams, combined with the angular forces of the cam teeth causes torque to be transmitted to the slower turning wheel. The Suretrac differential is lubricated by normal gear oil, with flutes on the side of the differential case used to direct oil into the cam followers and plates.

It has been postulated that the suretrac is somehow adding to the understeer problem, but I seriously doubt it.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 06:13 PM   #10
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IMHO, two main things make the EVO feel like it handles better. Less power and a quicker steering rack. Higher the HP, the harder the car is going to be to drive. A nice quick steering rack makes a car feel like it handles better. And handling is measured subjectively anyway. The driver's personal style decides the car's balance. (to a certain degree) (sorry to bring up the Evo here, but I felt I had to put my two cents in.)

And let's look at why the STI may have an understeer problem. A 300hp awd car from the factory. It is well know that understeer is the most safe driving charactoristic. I think subaru intentionally left some understeer in the suspension, so you (generic person) wouldn't put the car in a ditch.

I think with some different swaybars and a few other goodies, it will not be a problem any longer. As for me, I am going to wait and drive the car myself before I do anything to the suspension. The way the STI is setup maybe fine for me staight from the factory. There will be plenty of days at the autox for me to find that out.
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Old 04-30-2003, 06:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by ToddStratton
Here is another bit of info on the suretrac lsd. This is from the MY01 STi description:
----------------------------------------
The New Impreza WRX STi also comes equipped with front & rear “Suretrac” limited slip differentials. These LSDs respond to a torque differential between left and right wheels transferring the torque from the slip wheel to the non-slip wheel. The benefit is that they only activate under drive and do not respond to differences in left & right wheel cornering speed when coasting. This means that at the limit of adhesion torque is transferred from the inside wheel that is losing traction as a result of weight transfer to the outside that has traction. The effect is to noticeably reduce understeer under hard cornering under engine power. The ‘Suretrac’ LSD function, differs from a conventional differential in that it does not have pinion gears and side gears. In their place are two opposing face cams and nineteen cam followers. The face cams are formed with a series of inclined ramps resembling sharp teeth. One face cam has nine ‘teeth’ the other has ten ‘teeth’. The cam followers have special asymmetrically shaped profiles to match the face cams, and they are splined to the differential case. This means that drive through the differential is via the cam followers to the face cams, and then to the axles. When moving in a straight line, there is no relative speed difference between the face cams, which are splined to the front axles. When cornering with no load, each of the face cams is free to rotate independently from the other. Under this condition, the cam followers oscillate freely from left to right. When torque is applied, the cam followers are forced against the face cams, transmitting driving force to the wheels. If a wheel begins to slip, the relative movement between the two face cams, combined with the angular forces of the cam teeth causes torque to be transmitted to the slower turning wheel. The Suretrac differential is lubricated by normal gear oil, with flutes on the side of the differential case used to direct oil into the cam followers and plates.
It has been postulated that the suretrac is somehow adding to the understeer problem, but I seriously doubt it.
TRS
I don't.

From Autoweek....
"On the road all those differentials feel noticeably unlike your generic front-drive compact sedan. Lift off the gas during easy cornering and you can feel the front diff separate and the car pull to the outside; get back on the gas and the differential connects to limit slip and pull the car around the corner."

Just using logic, I know nothing like this happens in a stock wrx, because I own one. I know several people have reported this in STI's, both with and without the DCCD, but always with the suretrac front trick dif. So...........
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Old 04-30-2003, 06:34 PM   #12
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I still don't see how a LSD will ADD to understeer.

Although it sounds reasonable at first, it seems flawed since when not under power there is no acceleration vector to the forces on the contact patch, just the turning forces. Why would the front tires give up with less force being exerted on them?

This is the same front diff on the JDM STi and spec c. The latest iterations of these reportedly don't understeer much.

One explanation is that these testers are at the limit of the tires' grip--with the suretrac active under power--so that when they get off the throttle, the force being asked of the outside tire is now increased, it starts slipping and you get understeer. Which you would have hit before without the suretrac splitting some of the torque. Said another way, getting off of the throttle just put you back where you would have been without the LSD in the first place.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 07:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: STi Suspension Discussion

Quote:
Originally posted by ToddStratton
I totally agree with gtguy and Paul Hansen. People are saying
(or implying) the understeer is incurable without even driving it! Those guys are nuts. There are plenty of well setup WRXs around.
Not only are there good WRX setups (I'd love to nail one for my stock WRX), but by all accounds I've seen the v8 JDM STi (at least spec C) does NOT have understeer like is reported for the USDM 04 STi. This would tend to imply that this is not an incurable chasis issue, but instead, that there are some suspension geometry or setup differences between the USDM and JDM STi. I have no idea what they would be, but I've heard rumors that the 04 US STi is using the same shock absorbers as the v7 02 JDM STi... So if the USDM STi shares more in commeon with the v7 STi suspension-wise than the v8 STi, that might go a long way to explaining the understeer.
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Old 04-30-2003, 08:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by ToddStratton
I still don't see how a LSD will ADD to understeer.

Which you would have hit before without the suretrac splitting some of the torque.
TRS
Whether you realise it or not, you are saying the same thing as the road testers about the Sti's handling. But your sort of using physics to obscure it. (no offense)

You are treating understeer as if it can be lumped together into one overall sum where we can then decide whether the suretrac's net effect it to increase it or lesson it.

But you're leaving out the issue of when the understeer would take place. Especially relative to the issue of what the driver expects, and can be realistically expected to do about it.

A driver knows when to expect power understeer and what to do about it.

But, we are theorizing that the suretrac causes lift-throttle understeer.

You are saying that even if it does, it doesn't matter because without it you would have understeered earlier.

Even if that is true it's irrelavent.

It's as if we were discussing whether old Porsche 911's have drop throttle snap oversteer due to the engine in the tail (they do), and you countered by saying that without the engine in the back helping the rear wheels to plant themselves you would have oversteered anyway long before. Well....maybe, maybe not. But
it doesn't change the fact that you lift the throttle and the tail comes swinging round.

From a driver's point of view you can't make that nasty reality go away with possibly flawed physics.

I don't know what the deal is with the Sti lift throttle understeer.
But the reality is, it's present in the STI and not in the WRX. It's significant enough that several road testers have commented on it.

How else can you explain?
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Old 04-30-2003, 09:01 PM   #15
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I don't think the problem is quite as bad as the 911. With the 911 you go into a decreaseing radius turn (an off ramp for instance) too hot and the tail of the car starts to rotate around and you hit oversteer city. Panic and lift off the gas (or worse touch the brake) and you leave the comfort of the frying pan for the fire. I believe the term is "trailing throttle oversteer" Most Porsches (911 VARIANTS) leave the road BACKWARDS!

We don't quite have it that bad first we don't have a boat anchor in the trunk second we have understeer, not nearly as deadly. Get off the gas to fast and you come out of the turn not into it. We'll still need to do some research into the problem but I don't think we have 911 sized problems and even those are tuned into some pretty mean track cars.
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Old 04-30-2003, 09:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by pk!
I don't think the problem is quite as bad as the 911. With the 911 you go into a decreaseing radius turn (an off ramp for instance) too hot and the tail of the car starts to rotate around and you hit oversteer city. Panic and lift off the gas (or worse touch the brake) and you leave the comfort of the frying pan for the fire. I believe the term is "trailing throttle oversteer" Most Porsches (911 VARIANTS) leave the road BACKWARDS!

We don't quite have it that bad first we don't have a boat anchor in the trunk second we have understeer, not nearly as deadly. Get off the gas to fast and you come out of the turn not into it. We'll still need to do some research into the problem but I don't think we have 911 sized problems and even those are tuned into some pretty mean track cars.
pk!
Oh I'm sure it's not that big of a deal. And I'm not trying to make big deal out of it. Just trying to understand how it might be possible for a device that's meant to reduce power-understeer might have the unfortunate side effect described by the STI testers.
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Old 04-30-2003, 09:08 PM   #17
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I'm coming at this from the JDM viewpoint, of course, but certain things don't add up to the extreme reactions here.

First off, a car that posts higher emergency-lane change numbers and identical skidpad numbers is not understeering hugely. In fact, the phrase "relative to the Evo" is something that is hugely ignored, as far as I can tell.

Lift throttle understeer has probably been dialed in to the STi - as others said, the WRX doesn't do this, and well, it's not exactly a desired trait from the manufacturers point of view that it does do that. I take it everybody has forgotten the "dude, a tree ate my car" threads back when the WRX was introduced. Evidently, Subaru hasn't.

If you read the article through, Rod Stillen stated that "when I get back on the power, it feels great. It grips and pulls strongly". His understeer comments are related to off-power - on the dirt. Not the tarmac. As far as I can tell, the article doesn't say that he was the one that ran it around the streets of willow, unless the SOW is a dirt track.

The steering felt slow "in comparison to the go-kart Evo" that "feels nervous and harsh on poor roads". About what I've said in the past - which compromise do you want?

Now, on to the suspension:

If the USDM STi is different in suspension pieces, here are the easy to change areas that STi could have dialed the understeer in at.

Front and Rear ARB's. That's the easy answer, and it was Glenn Wallace that pointed out that the front ARB has been upped to 20mm. I don't think that's made the printed information lists because it was part of the "running changes" that has been going on.

ARB links. The JDM STi has a interesting thing going on with the arb links front to rear. The fronts are the standard, floppy links of dubious fame, which allow for quite a bit of movement before the arb comes into play. The rears, though, are solid-type links. Shorter, stronger midsection and solid pillow-ball ends. That would have the effect of promoting oversteer and turn-in from my experiences with such links. The drawback is noise and NVH. If Subaru/STi wanted to dial in a bit of oversteer and make the car a bit more compliant and quieter, that's an easy change for them. Put in the longer, plastic end links. The drawback of those is that it becomes a bit more unpredictable at the limits.

Front/rear geometry hard points. They could have stuck with the older STi 7 hardpoints in the rear - the fronts are certainly the newer Spec C setup - but I doubt it. It's cheaper to keep the new hardpoints, and play with the links/arbs.

Dampers/springs. While they have an effect, I've yet to experience big differences in understeer/oversteer due to minor differences in damper/spring setups. ARB settings tend to have much more of an effect, IMO.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
According to another thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...threadid=333118 the sizes are:

Front 19mm
Rear 20 mm
I believe this is not the spec of the car we are getting.

I think we are getting a 20mm front bar. The JDM STi should pick it up as a running change.

Any talk of rampant understeer is ill-advised unless you also know the front and rear spring rates. (duh)

Glenn
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by strangerq


Whether you realise it or not, you are saying the same thing as the road testers about the Sti's handling. But your sort of using physics to obscure it. (no offense)

I realize that I'm saying the same thing, but I'm implying it is probably not unpredictable nor is it making the situation worse. Also, I'm not trying to say "physics obscure it", just that the suretrac is not INCREASING the understeer, just delaying the onset. Which is really all you can hope for from a front LSD, right? At some point you'll understeer in any car.

I think now that it has been highlighted that the front ARB is actually 20mm, and that the camber settings are very mild, the problem may be mitigated with minor tweaking.

We should find out shortly if the struts are the same as JDM v8 STis.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


I believe this is not the spec of the car we are getting.

I think we are getting a 20mm front bar. The JDM STi should pick it up as a running change.

Any talk of rampant understeer is ill-advised unless you also know the front and rear spring rates. (duh)

Glenn
So, the JDM STi will have a 20mm bar as well?

Well, what are the spring rates? Changing the springs is one way to address it, but a rather drastic one for a new car.

TRS
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:43 PM   #21
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Given the reported alignment specs there is a good chance that dialing in extra negative camber in the front may take care of the reported understeer.
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:53 PM   #22
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To be honest, getting your braking done early, getting on the gas mildly towards apex then giving the pedal a look at the carpet post-apex seems to be a fairly straight-forward cure of this lift-throttle understeer to me.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:16 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma
To be honest, getting your braking done early, getting on the gas mildly towards apex then giving the pedal a look at the carpet post-apex seems to be a fairly straight-forward cure of this lift-throttle understeer to me.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com


Sounds like fun to me. I can't wait to get down to the local track and see just how curable this whole understeering problem is with the use of one simple tool. My size 12 shoe!!
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
So, the JDM STi will have a 20mm bar as well?
I'm not sure when, but as a running change, not a new model.

Quote:
Well, what are the spring rates? Changing the springs is one way to address it, but a rather drastic one for a new car.
Address what? You mean you changing the springs or the factory spec?

Glenn
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:32 AM   #25
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How about putting on something like..

22mm/24mm?? (reverse of EVO's)

Just that 19/20 or 20/20 seems small to me... when I got a
bigger sway bar for my E36 M3 (which already has slightly bigger
sway than STi's at 21/20mm stock)... the body roll reduced
dramatically... which I really like...
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