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Old 10-22-2020, 11:27 PM   #1
GrahamOD
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Default Increasing reliability

Hi,

I have a 2016 WRX Limited. It's mainly a daily but I've tracked it a few times and intend to do it more.

I've read lot of threads here and on FB groups, so sorry to rehash old topics but there's a lot of info out there and sometimes conflicting.

If I intend to track the car more, and my first goal is NOT adding more power. What should I do to make the car as reliable as possible or at least last as long as possible than a factory stock motor being pushed harder on a track?

I know some will say sell it and get an STI with better transmission but I ask the question under the assumption I'm working with a WRX and not an STI.

Thanks!
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:33 PM   #2
3eyesraver
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I would still get a protune stage 1 at least cuz the OEM tune is really sluggish. Then, AOS, oil cooler, etc.
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:17 AM   #3
killadawg
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Change Oil at 3 or max 4k intervals. Use good Oil. Change plugs and filters regularly.. make sure you have a pro tune and if possible an Oil cooler and and an AOS.

For the track #1 is Tires!!!!!!!! Then alignment. Brake pads and suspension if you have the $..
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:58 AM   #4
idiosyncrisia
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Tires are what's going to drop your time around the track the most. Most of the 200TW tires are going to be great.

I like the Hankook RS4 tires because they're grippy, fast, and loooooooooooong wearing. Could I get better tires? Sure, but these grippy boys don't wear out! Although they definitely heat cycle out so while they might not wear out, they will lose their grip eventually.

Run a 40 weight oil for track days. I end up going to Walmart for track day oil (Castrol for me) and switching back out to 5w30 motul after the track.

Front brake pad upgrades are nice. You don't need fancy rotors or anything, but good front pads will help as the cars are heavy. Hit up KNSBrakes.com or email Ken there and he can get you set up.

Make sure you put in good brake fluid too. Nothing scarier than the pedal depressing all the way to the floor and not slowing down.

Depending on where you live, an oil cooler is good like others have said. I have not seen my oil temps rise over 240 while on the track, which is getting up there, but its OK. I live in NJ, so if you're in California, this might have a much higher priority.

Get yourself a lap timer app and a way to capture video. There's plenty of apps out there that can do this affordably. I use RaceChrono Pro on my android device with an external bluetooth satellite antenna. It works very well, and I can record video from my phone too, so no need for a GoPro.

Get an alignment! Even if you're on stock suspension, benefits can be had by getting a more aggressive alignment! It's pretty cheap to have one done.

Rear sway bar will help rotate the back of the car. It's a pretty sizable improvement over stock even on stock suspension.

That's a lot of stuff for stock. But let me tell you, I was stock with a stage 1 OTS tune (MAPerformance) for about 2 years while taking my car to the track. Slapping on tires was the best bang for my buck. Then I did full bolt on for engine performance and took it back to the same track. Well, that didn't give me anywhere near as much time for my money as tires and brakes did over stock. I kind of wish I never touched the engine now. Oh well, live and learn.

Just get out there and enjoy it!
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:04 AM   #5
RacecarWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idiosyncrisia View Post
Tires are what's going to drop your time around the track the most. Most of the 200TW tires are going to be great.

I like the Hankook RS4 tires because they're grippy, fast, and loooooooooooong wearing. Could I get better tires? Sure, but these grippy boys don't wear out! Although they definitely heat cycle out so while they might not wear out, they will lose their grip eventually.

Run a 40 weight oil for track days. I end up going to Walmart for track day oil (Castrol for me) and switching back out to 5w30 motul after the track.

Front brake pad upgrades are nice. You don't need fancy rotors or anything, but good front pads will help as the cars are heavy. Hit up KNSBrakes.com or email Ken there and he can get you set up.

Make sure you put in good brake fluid too. Nothing scarier than the pedal depressing all the way to the floor and not slowing down.

Depending on where you live, an oil cooler is good like others have said. I have not seen my oil temps rise over 240 while on the track, which is getting up there, but its OK. I live in NJ, so if you're in California, this might have a much higher priority.

Get yourself a lap timer app and a way to capture video. There's plenty of apps out there that can do this affordably. I use RaceChrono Pro on my android device with an external bluetooth satellite antenna. It works very well, and I can record video from my phone too, so no need for a GoPro.

Get an alignment! Even if you're on stock suspension, benefits can be had by getting a more aggressive alignment! It's pretty cheap to have one done.

Rear sway bar will help rotate the back of the car. It's a pretty sizable improvement over stock even on stock suspension.

That's a lot of stuff for stock. But let me tell you, I was stock with a stage 1 OTS tune (MAPerformance) for about 2 years while taking my car to the track. Slapping on tires was the best bang for my buck. Then I did full bolt on for engine performance and took it back to the same track. Well, that didn't give me anywhere near as much time for my money as tires and brakes did over stock. I kind of wish I never touched the engine now. Oh well, live and learn.

Just get out there and enjoy it!
Good advice, but I'd skip the rear sway bar.

With regards to the stock suspension, keep it stock and get an aggressive alignment and go. Its pretty good, and the ceiling on it is VERY high. The only must have upgrade while stock is a pair of adjustable rear LCAs. The stock camber setup is heavily biases towards understeer. There is a bit more you can do with suspension but it cost money, and well it depends on how far you want to go with the car.

For oil, Castrol 0W40 Euro. Its REALLY cheap at Walmart, $22 bucks. It is a highly regarded oil. Change it after every event, and consider it a consumable. Especially if you get your temps hot hot.

Temp wise, it really depends on how hard you as a driver can push the car. Some people will never heat the thermal max on the cars because they simply don't drive it hard enough. Others will find these limits quickly. Wait till you hit them before you buy anything.

This same applies for brakes too. But out of the gate you'll want upgrade pads and fluid.

As for a laptimer, I encourage people to look at this:
https://www.autosportlabs.com/produc...apturepro-mk3/

After you buy a phone app, a external GPS, and OBD reader, it adds up the roughly the same price as the Racecapture Track. But the difference is:
  1. The Track's GPS is up to 50hz. Significantly faster than your standard external GPS unit. It can also lock on to multiple satellites, while most units may lock onto 2.
  2. Programmable. You can do custom scripts to program also sorts of things into the car.
  3. OBD or CAN logging. Can is much faster and can potentially provide you with a boat load of extra information. For the WRX, you can get a TON of info, here is an example (click a lap on the left and watch the data load in) : https://podium.live/events/20_10_10-...ap_ids=2567317
  4. Dual can network, you can use the second network to expand functionality: oil pressure, diff temperature, shift lights, alert lights, etc.
  5. Up to 3 displays. You can use your phone for lap timing, a tablet for dash display, and a third device for whatever else you want to monitor while tracking.
  6. Way more functionality than you probably will ever need for example: Pit to Car communication, Race flag alerts, Race position information (seconds to car ahead, seconds to car behind). These systems are constantly increasing in functionality.

Here is a photo of my dash setup on the way to the track a few weeks ago. Normally the phone sits in the ram mount to the right of the shift lights to display laptimes, fastest lap, last lap, and predictive timing.


Seriously I could go on and on about Autosportlabs and their Racecapture products.

In any case, besides some very very basic things. The car is ready to be trashed on. It's a great car, and tons of fun.

Last edited by RacecarWRX; 10-23-2020 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 10-24-2020, 05:15 PM   #6
GrahamOD
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Thanks for all the info guys. Following up with a few more questions.

The reason I ask specifically about "reliability" is because I read a lot of people online describing the WRX as having a "glass transmission" and if you read the FB groups, you'd think these engines just spontaneously explode at any moment.

So TBH, I know you have to take things you read on FB with a grain of salt, but after a few track days, it's kind of spooked me. I'd like to track the car a few times a year but it's still my every day car so I want to be somewhat cautious with it. So before going anywhere near power mods, I'd like to start with addressing obvious issues with the stock car.

I think after that, I agree, tires would be the best bang for the buck. So here's another "myth" I hear about these engines: Track tires are a bad idea because the engine has serious oil starvation issues. Higher cornering speeds would only make it worse. So is that fact or fiction? I've heard of internal mods people have done but not really sure what they did or if it's necessary. Any truth to this?

The original owner put an aftermarket front swaybar. It's an adjustable 22mm bar. It looks like the Whiteline one to me. Out of interest, I read on these forums, people tend to replace either the rear or both with aftermarket, so I don't fully understand his logic in only replacing the front. Any thoughts on that?

Anyway, I appreciate all the ideas. As I said, I don't really want to do power mods until this car gets boring at the track. I think it has plenty to be fun at the track. I want to make sure I'm having fun while not doing anything stupid to the engine, after that probably focus on improved handling and cornering and power mods would be after those on my list.
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Old 10-24-2020, 06:57 PM   #7
Lelorex
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I heard that the 6 speed in this WRX was originally sourced out of a diesel. Perhaps it can handle torque? My 2 cents would be the above mentioned stuff and a fluidampr.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:12 PM   #8
RacecarWRX
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Problem with the internet is, a lot of people read things then just echo them back. The retailers win big on this, because they can just let rumors or wives tales spread and make sales.

Transmission wise, if you are not slamming gears, you will be fine. People love the STi 6 speed because they can slam the gears, which in a drag racing situation may be applicable. However, in a track situation, slamming gears is SO freaking low on the list of things you can do to gain time, it is not worth it. You don't need to shift fast and hard when you are on track. So as long as you are not launch the car, and slamming gears left and right, the transmission should be fine. Plus, I find the STi gear ratios to be too close.

However, if you want to FIX the tranmission problem pre-emptively, save up for a STi trans swap. Its heavier, and has the DCCD and front LSD. You also need a different drive shaft, and at that point you might as well get the R180 diff and correct half shafts. Essentially, if you want to fix the trans, you'll need to do a full STi drivetrain swap. Personally, I think there are better places to spend that money first.

Oil pressure is an issue for all cars. So far, I haven't seen massive AND long dips in oil pressure. I'll see occasional dips, but it typically recovers pretty quickly. Again you can check my podium logs to review oil pressures.
My advice is:
  1. Monitor it! Anyone who is tracking any car and not monitoring oil pressure is STUPID. My datalogger uses an alert led mounted on the shift light to alert me to oil pressure, if it dips low it start to flash yellow, and if it dips super low it flashes red.
  2. Potentially use a higher grade oil. Factory spec is 5W30. You can try 5W40, I use the Castrol 0W40 mentioned above. The upside is a higher cst viscosity at higher temps, which should help with pressure. There are extra complexities with this, because of flow vs pressure, but thus far I haven't seen any issues with running the 0W40. Keep in mind, a higher cst viscosity oil will typically result in higher oil temperatures. Honestly if you aren't getting a 30W super hot, then stick with a 30W until you need to switch to a 40W.
  3. Overfill the motor. Yes overfill it. So long as you don't overfill too much and the oil starts to cavitate or foam, the increase volume will help insure the pickup has oil during long corners.
  4. Maybe the killer bee pickup, I haven't put one on so I can't tell you what the difference is to the stock unit. It's also a lot of work just to replace the pickup

Going back to sway bars. Personally, I think coilovers with a higher spring rates are better. Plus, the endlinks for these aftermarket bars SUCK. If you are serious about setting up the car, you want coilovers to corner balance the chassis. And if you are going to corner balance the chassis, you want adjustable end links. The aftermarket options for these cars all suck when it comes to adjustability. They all preload the swaybars. You'll want to make your own so you can dial the preload out.

If you aren't familiar with preload, google sway bar preload. Then go look at photos people post of FB with their thick sway bars, and ****ed up end links. You'll realize that ALL of these photos show how INCORRECTLY setup these endlinks are for this car.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:24 PM   #9
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Couldnt agree more with everything Racecarwrx is saying except that he is wrong about higher viscosity oil resulting in higher temps. Quite the opposite is true. It is somewhat counterintuitive at first glance. But you want to use higher viscosity oil when your lower (30 grade) gets too hot. Then you switch to higher grade oil and your temps actually drop because higher viscosity oil takes more energy to raise the temp by one degree than did lower viscosity oil, hence why its thought as of high "temperature oil." But it doesn't result in higher temps, its a cure for higher temp, thats where the confusion stems from i believe.

It takes longer to reach operating and max temp too, which should be < a lower spec oil would create under same circumstances.

If you arent reaching 240f on 30 spec oil i wouldnt use higher grade. You want it at 230-240f (as long as pressure wnl).
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Old 10-25-2020, 02:36 PM   #10
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Couldnt agree more with everything Racecarwrx is saying except that he is wrong about higher viscosity oil resulting in higher temps. Quite the opposite is true. It is somewhat counterintuitive at first glance. But you want to use higher viscosity oil when your lower (30 grade) gets too hot. Then you switch to higher grade oil and your temps actually drop because higher viscosity oil takes more energy to raise the temp by one degree than did lower viscosity oil, hence why its thought as of high “temperature oil.” But it doesn’t result in higher temps, its a cure for higher temp, thats where the confusion stems from i believe.

It takes longer to reach operating and max temp too, which should be < a lower spec oil would create under same circumstances.

If you arent reaching 240f on 30 spec oil i wouldnt use higher grade. You want it at 230-240f (as long as pressure wnl).
Wait so you think people use a higher weight oil to combat oil temperature?

People are using a higher weight oil to try to fight the drop in cst viscosity as oil temps increase. As viscosity drops so does the pressure. The draw back to using a higher viscosity oil is resistance and drag. It robs the motor of power, and creates more heat. This is one of the reasons why you see companies trying to use lower weight oils, lower viscosity = less power loss because less drag. Just look at the NASCAR, they use 5W20 oil. They are trying to net as much power as possible from the motors. But they also have the resources to develop a oil supply system that can ensure proper oil pressure for the engine.

Only reason we care about using a higher viscosity it hoping the increase pressure keeps the bearings fed with constant supply of oil to ensure proper lubrication.

Its a balancing act, which is why I said I haven't seen any adverse results from running a 0W40 oil.
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Old 10-25-2020, 03:28 PM   #11
GrahamOD
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Thanks guys,

Yeah, I'm experiencing exactly what you said about reading info online (especially FB). I'll read so much about the "glass transmission" so I assume these cars can't handle much track time but then I see those guys just post YouTube videos on them launching the cars as hard as they can.

Or I read about their big sways bars changing their under/oversteer characteristics but they mainly ride their car around town so I don't really get how they can tell if that's all.

But you read enough about the cars and get a bit spooked at how much mods would be required to not blow it to smithereens if it revs over 4k.

It's really cool to hear from people who've actually tracked this car because I'd rather look into whats tried and tested if you know what I mean.
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Old 10-25-2020, 04:38 PM   #12
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You said it, as temp increases viscosity decreases and so does your pressure as a result. So yes, combat temp to have adequate pressure isnt an incorrect statement. So yes, "People are using a higher weight oil to try to fight the drop in cst viscosity as oil temps increase.", is a correct statement.

Now are you suggesting that all things equal a car with 5w30 will run cooler oil temps than a car running 5w40, or that operating temp is somehow irrelevant to pressure?
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Old 10-25-2020, 06:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
wrong about higher viscosity oil resulting in higher temps. Quite the opposite is true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
Now are you suggesting that all things equal a car with 5w30 will run cooler oil temps than a car running 5w40, or that operating temp is somehow irrelevant to pressure?
I am absolutely disagreeing with your first statement. So yes, all things equal a 5W40 will run hotter than a 5W30. You can't really say irrelevant of pressure because they are interrelated.

If you can explain why a higher viscosity oil will result in cooler oil temps than a lower viscosity oil, all things equal, please shed some light. This would be the first time I've ever heard this.
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:43 AM   #14
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I did explain why, because higher grades are supposed to have higher resistance to higher temps. Higher resistance doesnt mean heats up easier, quite the opposite. For a more technical explanation search it yourself because you will tend to agree with it more if you find it out yourself.

I also suggest you test it out too. My operating temps dropped by 10-15F going from 30 to 40, and my warm up time increased too both because of increased thermal resistance with 40 weight over 30 weight. They absolutely are interrelated, temp, press and viscosity.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th.../#post-2467880
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th.../#post-3131235

Last edited by Rexy18; 10-26-2020 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:03 PM   #15
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This is getting interesting ;-)// So my 2 cents.. when normal driving I did get a slight increase in oil temp when running thicker oil.. yet at the track or rally courses when I'm hammering on the engine at WOT for prolonged periods, the thicker oil actually stays at a lower highest temp point.. So my 5w 30 would be in the 240 range with a huge oilcooler, and never go over 230 with 5w/10w 40 /50 (mostly Motul Power Oil) I did experience slight lower heat overall when I ran Amsoil dominator oil (no idea why) again the temperature difference was no more than 10 degrees.. so in the end I don't think this matters more on the temperature side as it does with Oil Pressure and lubrication. Oil pressure maintained better while on the track with the thicker oil (yes my engine does have KB pickup, and I don't have a base to check the difference from stock, and lately the WRX is just collecting dust in a garage, been playing with my Ford ;-)..)

I would stress that just having fresh oil is better than the fight over which is best.. etc.. I also would change my oil after hard use on a track weekend or rally even. I think I used to spend more on Oil and WMI than anything else.
seat time is gonna be your best overall mod!! hands down!! When I started my track ventures, I went bonkers on modding and had to learn to drive to the limit on a car that was very modified (I killed some progress this way, as getting to the limit was much harder and also less forgiving and out right scary)

If I could do it over again, I would have done my HPDE and rally training with a fully stock WRX and upgraded slowly learning the changes as I get comfortable with the car again. I remember on a certain track even a dude on a fully stock (tires included) wupped my rear end by a huge lead.. coming in I was all "Oh yeah whatever"... I had the light wheels, BBK, carbon driveshaft, sti trans and cusco lsds, 200whp more, track tires, highend 2 way coilovers, swaybars, control arms, bracing and so forth etc.. etc.. I lost!!! great humbling experience and btw I became good friends with that better driver!!
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
I did explain why, because higher grades are supposed to have higher resistance to higher temps. Higher resistance doesnt mean heats up easier, quite the opposite. For a more technical explanation search it yourself because you will tend to agree with it more if you find it out yourself.

I also suggest you test it out too. My operating temps dropped by 10-15F going from 30 to 40, and my warm up time increased too both because of increased thermal resistance with 40 weight over 30 weight. They absolutely are interrelated, temp, press and viscosity.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th.../#post-2467880
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th.../#post-3131235
We are pointing fingers at two different things. You keep pointing at specific heat, which I haven't seen data on the specific heat of a 30w vs a 40w oil. But I'll concede maybe a 40W might have a higher specific heat than a 30W, I have no evidence to say it would or wouldn't. As a result putting in 1 joule of energy into both will result in a higher temperature in the 30W.

However, I'm pointing my finger at drag that comes from the higher viscosity. At a low motor rpm it is negligible but on the track the motor is spinning at high RPM constantly, that drag adds up to create additional heat. In this situation, a more viscous oil will create more drag and the longer the motor spins at higher rpms the more energy is sapped from turning the crank into heating the oil.

In any case, there is unknown risk associated with switching to a 30W for me just to find out which of us is right. We can just agree to disagree.
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:46 PM   #17
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There is nothing to disagree man. Its a fact that same oil in a higher grade will run cooler all other things equal. In a circumstance where one purposely switches to a heavier oil to increase drag and pressure under high temps what you describe is particularly irrelevant. Its not like ones drag and pressures were ok on thin oil at high temps and one decides to switch to a thicker oil just for fun and to cause drag and pressure issues. Quite the opposite is true, one is experiencing low pressure (and drag) with thinner oil and is compensating by switching to thicker oil to increase (drag and) pressure to what one finds are normal limits to your application.

If one has drag/press wnl on 30 weight oil but put 50 weight instead, you may have a point. But no one is talking about this scenario where one purposely uses wrong oil, instead only the scenario where drag/press are low (at elevated temps) so one needs to compensate w thicker oil so youre purposely adding drag/pressure to fix the low pressures you may be experiencing and bring it wnl.

Last edited by Rexy18; 10-26-2020 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 10-26-2020, 06:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
There is nothing to disagree man. Its a fact that same oil in a higher grade will run cooler all other things equal. In a circumstance where one purposely switches to a heavier oil to increase drag and pressure under high temps what you describe is particularly irrelevant. Its not like ones drag and pressures were ok on thin oil at high temps and one decides to switch to a thicker oil just for fun and to cause drag and pressure issues. Quite the opposite is true, one is experiencing low pressure (and drag) with thinner oil and is compensating by switching to thicker oil to increase (drag and) pressure to what one finds are normal limits to your application.

If one has drag/press wnl on 30 weight oil but put 50 weight instead, you may have a point. But no one is talking about this scenario where one purposely uses wrong oil, instead only the scenario where drag/press are low (at elevated temps) so one needs to compensate w thicker oil so youre purposely adding drag/pressure to fix the low pressures you may be experiencing and bring it wnl.
+1 (yup, was and tiss my only reason to use heavier oil, also built block that prob. doesn't have the same tolerances as the OEM and is producing more than double the power output)
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