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Old 03-16-2013, 10:49 PM   #26
dstroy
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http://daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm

He makes them for eg33's too. You have to design your headers around the pump driveshaft.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scby rex View Post
The setup Irv posted is very similar to the Zen performance setup in the UK. Will it be ran off the timing belt idler too or crank pulley?
its ran off the the water pump, theres another pulley that replaces whats on the water pump, it has an addition on it where it still uses the std one, and adds another that extends out, (opened up the timing cover for it to clear out of it)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
That looks like a Daley engineering dry sump. Where are you going to drill and tap the heads at?
yes, its the daley engineering set-up, the block was tapped at the crank case, same with the heads, to replace the slip over hose, everything is an fittings now, it was tapped and weld bungs added to the lower part of valve covers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty_STi View Post
V8 guys talk about gaining some serious power from dry sump (in some cases like 40-60hp). Is that something that is seen on subies (perhaps not those levels of hp gains, but meaningful ones)?? Just to throw another wrench in the works.
the system, does not add any power, you'd need more air to make more power, this makes everything more efficient with cancelling out all the bs catch can, air/oil seperaters and all, blow by and everything is solved with this, mainly for cornering and starving the pickup is why this is such a great thing, it took me a while to realize, in a normal set-up with out one of these, in every hard turn the oil slaushes into the head, not an ideal thing, and causes motors to blow

this set-up is my older brothers, don't know everything about it, but she's pretty & like others here have said, easily worth the money hands down, if you really use your car, this is the only way to do it, along with a surge tank for fuel for the same slaushing/ starving reasons. But this as others said fixes many many more things then just that

Last edited by Irv Weissmanhowerton; 03-17-2013 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post
As soon as oil exits your pickup and enters the oil pump, your wet sump pan relies on the factory oiling system to get that oil through the engine etc. all the way back to your pan and therein lies a significant limiting factor in the effectiveness of a wet sump system.

A high HP time attack car like Phil's can put lots of power down at high RPM while taking a high speed sweeper. That induces the following combination:
significant crankcase pressure
high oil flow
high oil flow requirement
high G
long duration corner

That combination is a recipe for disaster without proper oil control that a good dry sump system provides. Oil is being pumped very quickly and he needs to flow a lot of oil to support the RPM and power level. Then the crankcase pressure is firing oil into breathers and G forces are holding oil in the head on the outside of the corner so a significant amount of oil is not getting back to the pan. If the corner is long enough that the oil capacity of the pan is overcome...game over.

When a significant amount of oil isn't getting back to the pan, improved pan/pickup design and larger capacity only buy you time. The same goes for an Accusump.

As Phil stated, a wet sump is sufficient for the vast majority of Subaru owners.
Phil's setup and another 'kits' use the OEM pump as a means for providing pressure/flow to the engine. By your statements, you may not have been aware of this.

Like I said before and again, the conditions Phil sees in his track car are not exclusive to Phil. He's got T/A podium finishes using his oiling product, as do we with ours.

I know more than a few poeple had oiling "issues", including starvation, with the Moroso setup. There's no lack of this (datalogged) data available on the web as well. This was a 'wet sump' stigma we had to overcome with our setup on track cars early on. Acceptance grew from there as more track guys shared experiences and were were much more staisfied with the results.

IMO a simple 2-stage dry sump's primary benefit is significantly more capacity, period. Oil control isn't highly improved as I've seen a 6 quart dry sump setup starve. Phil's setup for what it is (IMO) has enough oil so this shouldn't happen. I wouldn't expect it to starve, but I've seem more than a couple guys running 12 quart setups falling prey to the more is better mantra. Personally, I don't not like running that much (9+ quarts) oil in these cars, especially without scavenging from the heads. It has the potential to flood the heads a LOT, which is never good. It's why we recommend 5-stage setups.

On Accusumps we do not recommend tham for anything more than priming. Once you gain some intimate knowledge of Subaru oiling you'd know a Accusump will not provide nearly enough pressure nor flow. Under track conditions (high RPMs) the largest ones will empty in the blink of an eye far below the pressure required those RPM and load levels. An accusump used to combat oil starvation is a terrible idea. Use them to prime and to reduce pressure occilations as they were originally designed for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty_STi View Post
V8 guys talk about gaining some serious power from dry sump (in some cases like 40-60hp). Is that something that is seen on subies (perhaps not those levels of hp gains, but meaningful ones)?? Just to throw another wrench in the works.

Matt
This is true. You look at the history of dry sump and the circle track guys definitely had advantages using them. Lowering the engine a significant amount while increasing oil capacity was huge! As was added HP from evacuating oil from the outside facing head. To fully utilize the advantages of a dry sump the heads MUST be scavenged as well, there's power to be had by doing this. Blow-by advantages and ring seal are highly debatable on 2-stage only pulling from the crankcase. Run a scavenge port on each valve cover and 2 in the sump (4 total), use a vacuum regulator because there will ALWAYS be vaccum now and the 5th stage is the pump, which you set your pressure however you like it That is the jist of the setup we've recommended when consulted. NEVER for a car that is anywhere remotely near street legal, track only!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
http://daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm

He makes them for eg33's too. You have to design your headers around the pump driveshaft.
I've heard good and bad from these systems. The packaging is interesting, but I would expect it to be more beneficial on a non-boxer platform only because of the space constraints in places on an already confined and heat abundant area. Without having any personal experience, I have no opinion.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:22 PM   #29
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Chris bringin' the knowledge. Love it!


-Matt
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
http://daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm

He makes them for eg33's too. You have to design your headers around the pump driveshaft.
Yes Bill now makes the EG33. It took me almost a year and being a constant pest to get this in production. I had Bill make two for me.






I sold my second one to Andy forrest Performance after this happen to him on one of his runs.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2420207

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Old 03-17-2013, 11:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by amazingmumford View Post
I sold my second one to Andy forrest Performance after this happen to him on one of his runs.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2420207

Curious. You happen to know what crank pulley was on this car?
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:27 AM   #32
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Any price on that drysump? I didnt see on their website.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:40 AM   #33
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I didn't know some people including Phil were using a semi dry sump setups since he said dry sump. I run a true dry sump on my Subaru. Crankcase and valve cover area vacuum are regulated and oil flow is controlled.

This doesn't change my comments on the limitations of a wet sump.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:28 AM   #34
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Scavenge only dry sump is still a dry sump it just uses the oem oil pump which has installation and cost benefits. With Element Tuning engine builds we never had oil pressure issues so the oem pump is plenty even at 9k rpm and 715 whp. Starving the pickup road racing and overflowing breather cans were the issue we needed to solve.

Guys this isn't rocket science and almost every single top level race car runs a dry sump for the benefits it provides. A wet sump cannot compete period and even Porsche has tried but still has to run true dry sumps on the real race cars. A boxer motor is at a disadvantage in terms of oil getting trapped in the heads that no wet sump pan can fix. A dry sump improves this because you have at least two stages of oil scavenging pumps on the pan removing oil and heloing with vacuum.

While it was obvious in motor teardowns we would see less bearing wear but the dramatic improvement in cylinder wall lubrication was a surprise as you don't have your crank slinging oil as its no longer in a bath of oil.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:39 AM   #35
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The cracked oil pump gears we've seen and its from debris...usually due to spun bearings.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #36
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AFP's drag car is ridiculous. There's a video on youtube of it revving, you can see the tach, I'm trying to find it.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
Scavenge only dry sump is still a dry sump it just uses the oem oil pump which has installation and cost benefits. With Element Tuning engine builds we never had oil pressure issues so the oem pump is plenty even at 9k rpm and 715 whp. Starving the pickup road racing and overflowing breather cans were the issue we needed to solve.

Guys this isn't rocket science and almost every single top level race car runs a dry sump for the benefits it provides. A wet sump cannot compete period and even Porsche has tried but still has to run true dry sumps on the real race cars. A boxer motor is at a disadvantage in terms of oil getting trapped in the heads that no wet sump pan can fix. A dry sump improves this because you have at least two stages of oil scavenging pumps on the pan removing oil and heloing with vacuum.

While it was obvious in motor teardowns we would see less bearing wear but the dramatic improvement in cylinder wall lubrication was a surprise as you don't have your crank slinging oil as its no longer in a bath of oil.
No offence Phil, but if you're pushing oil into the can(s) of course you're depleting your oil supply and that may, and does, lead to starvation. That being said the solution is all the layout/setup. We see it all the time; guy gets can, installs can on firewall, can fills (overflows) in 20 minutes of track time. Starving intemittently would explain the cylinder wall wear too. Oil supply is oil supply, as long as it's reliable it doesn't matter what the source is.

At the RPMs your sustaining you're roping oil and wet or dry sump it's happening. Much less so on a Subaru since the block has built in psudo oil scrapers.

The dry sump solved you pushing oil into the valve cover vents (and cans) because you're now supplying a small amount of vaccum, and more importantly, some marginal pressure in your oil reservoir which keeps oil from backing out of the vents. Make no mistake, your heads are STILL filling with oil no matter how much vacuum you're putting in the sump. On a hard corner the outside head becomes the sump and there's zero way to remove it (via vacuum) unless there's a pickup there as well. Your saving grace is that you've got 8 quarts of oil buying you more time in the corners while the heads are flooding.

As far as your statement "a wet sump cannot compete" I think you need to revisit some time-attack standings for the last few years (or other venues for that matter) to refresh yourself with what the majority of winners were using. Comparing to a Porsche setup is a terrible idea. Except for the fact that they are both boxers and use oil, the oiling system designs have significant differences that give them each their own sets of challenges. I don't see any point in discussing this further, but we have been tinkering the some German stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The cracked oil pump gears we've seen and its from debris...usually due to spun bearings.
Are you sure it wasn't pump, first bearing second? I bet you'd be VERY suprised to find out how many hours and engine will go with a split outer rotor, with little to no symptoms.

I asked about the crank pulley used because that can be problematic. The nose of the crank can wobble and cause interference with a poor choice in pulley. Oversized pumps (pumps commonly sized too big for the given clearnaces/build), high viscosity oils, and RPMs beyond intended limits can exposed the pump to pressure spikes far beyond their intended design. This is not seen on a gauge, but can be seen with any decent sampling rate datalogger. Pressure is pressure and the manufacturing variations from pump to pump along with inexpensive gear manufactuing processes, and everything else mentioned can add up to a pump simply not up to the task. I've seen alloy steel gears used, but I'd prefer to see the oiling system setup better from the get-go. Done right these engines are 10K RPM capable with no oiling problem.

The gears are fairly soft and once you've seen engine failures you'll understand that you can put all kinds of 'crap' through them before they fail. Soft bearings tend to go throughy like play-doh especially since the pickup screen will only allow small pieces through

So how about some bolts in your pump!

OUCH!













Go figure, this car had 60K miles on it and suffered fro ringland failure when it was torn down and this was discovered
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:13 PM   #38
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Killer B, you need to just give up trying to teach me anything, we do our own R&D. We were oil starving with 5 quarts still in the motor. I was winning races but that didn't change the fact that I was killing the bearings once I crossed a certain threshold.

Sierra Sierra: Dry Sump
GST Motorsports: Dry Sump
FXMD NSX: Dry Sump
NEMO: Dry Sump
Scortch Racing: Dry Sump

Last time I checked these are the fastest time attack cars in the world and they all run dry sump oiling systems.

Seriously why are you so stubborn about admitting a dry sump oiling system is superior? It was invented to solve a very common issue and is used on every top level race car where it's allowed.

I just have to go away from this thread, it's nonsense
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:29 PM   #39
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Yes GST did a great job in 2012 (the only Subaru in that list) and they run a semi-dry setup like yours. Wet or dry if there's enough capacity it's not going to starve. This is my opinion based on experience with race cars, many tracks, many venues, all over the world.

If you were running 5 quarts and filling your cans you obviously had problems with your setup. That's not enough oil, barely more than OEM and likely less when you filled the cans.

You can put the pompus ego away, no one every said your dry sump doesn't work. I know you're THE expert in EVEYTHING Subaru (Built engines, racing, tuning, race car fab, manufacturing forged internals, turbochargers, and much much more I'm sure) whereas we only specialize in Subaru Oiling and a few other engineered do-dads.

How about reading some before before throwing out your it's this way and no other 'facts'. I never said wet sump was superior, just not needed for 99.98% of the race setups.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:32 PM   #40
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4G63 starve in righthanders above 1.5G sustained but even 1.3-1.4g can cause momentary pressure drop. Nemo and Sierra are obviously well above that level.

Out of curiousity, KillerB, you mention that a dry sump isnt meant for a street Subaru? Not the first time I have heard this and I havent run an Evo with one on the street either, but what is the reasoning? I can think of 3 cars of the top of my head that come factory with a dry sump and "apparently" no issues from it.

Aaron
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:34 AM   #41
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he's probably talking bang for buck, but when it comes to how often a motor has to be pulled or rebuilt with-out one, its not really anyone's place to say that your "street car" shouldn't have one, or "doesn't need one" for the mere 3500 +/- I say its worth it for peace of mind, & how much healthlier everything will be working together.

Plenty of people out there with sleeved motor's or billet cranks that are mainly street driven cars,

there's alot worse things to spend the dry sump money on, like wheels or any of cosmetics
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:48 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Yes GST did a great job in 2012 (the only Subaru in that list) and they run a semi-dry setup like yours. Wet or dry if there's enough capacity it's not going to starve. This is my opinion based on experience with race cars, many tracks, many venues, all over the world.

If you were running 5 quarts and filling your cans you obviously had problems with your setup. That's not enough oil, barely more than OEM and likely less when you filled the cans.

You can put the pompus ego away, no one every said your dry sump doesn't work. I know you're THE expert in EVEYTHING Subaru (Built engines, racing, tuning, race car fab, manufacturing forged internals, turbochargers, and much much more I'm sure) whereas we only specialize in Subaru Oiling and a few other engineered do-dads.

How about reading some before before throwing out your it's this way and no other 'facts'. I never said wet sump was superior, just not needed for 99.98% of the race setups.
Pompus, please......I'm factual and have done all the testing I needed to confirm there was no other choice than to go dry sump.

Look I had multiple track records, championships, and ftd not only on totally stock oil pan and pickup but also on a stock motor. If I use your mentality of podium finishes as a reason a wet sump is all that's needed then we could conclude from my results a stock pan, pickup, and motor is more than adequate. In many cases it is we know this but I have a problem with you disputing the merits of a dry sump oil system.

Some need to seriously consider a dry sump and others do not. When we build customer motors and cars I pretty much know who will be ok with a pan upgrade and who may not be. There's a local guy that runs the killer b setup and he's spinning bearings at 8 seconds a lap slower than us. The problem is not the pan, he can't get the oil to drain back down there which is the problem I was having (5 quarts still in pan after I toasted bearings not 5 to start).
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:30 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
he's probably talking bang for buck, but when it comes to how often a motor has to be pulled or rebuilt with-out one, its not really anyone's place to say that your "street car" shouldn't have one, or "doesn't need one" for the mere 3500 +/- I say its worth it for peace of mind, & how much healthlier everything will be working together.

Plenty of people out there with sleeved motor's or billet cranks that are mainly street driven cars,

there's alot worse things to spend the dry sump money on, like wheels or any of cosmetics
You're exactly right. This boils down for many as piece of mind. We deal with a lot of customers who have had previous builds from other shops that spun bearings or worse. In most not all these were just bad builds and had nothing to do with pickup related issues. Many of them had no need for a dry sump or killler b setup but if you can afford either its worth it.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:07 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
There's a local guy that runs the killer b setup and he's spinning bearings at 8 seconds a lap slower than us. The problem is not the pan, he can't get the oil to drain back down there which is the problem I was having (5 quarts still in pan after I toasted bearings not 5 to start).
I can't comment on this as I have zero information, but many questions.

If the PCV is done right, and there's data to backup that the pump was starved, this would be the first we've heard about. Having a single source (shop) with repetitive wet sump oiling issues on several different Subarus does bring into question other things, like the PCV design you're using. I'd like to know more, but this thread may not be the best place for that. Of course this is assuming Phil would ease up on his 'facts' and open his mind to the possibility that he may not do everything perfect. Or, maybe he and his local racers have a combination of awesome conditions (man, machine, track or otherwise) that has uncovered a weakness in oursetup that has never before been seen?

Improvements will only make happier customers and/or provide them with other options. If it comes to reviving the multi-pickup sump to do it, so be it.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:53 AM   #45
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Pompus, please......I'm factual and have done all the testing I needed to confirm there was no other choice than to go dry sump.

Look I had multiple track records, championships, and ftd not only on totally stock oil pan and pickup but also on a stock motor. If I use your mentality of podium finishes as a reason a wet sump is all that's needed then we could conclude from my results a stock pan, pickup, and motor is more than adequate. In many cases it is we know this but I have a problem with you disputing the merits of a dry sump oil system.

Some need to seriously consider a dry sump and others do not. When we build customer motors and cars I pretty much know who will be ok with a pan upgrade and who may not be. There's a local guy that runs the killer b setup and he's spinning bearings at 8 seconds a lap slower than us. The problem is not the pan, he can't get the oil to drain back down there which is the problem I was having (5 quarts still in pan after I toasted bearings not 5 to start).
Well put. One of my customers won the Canadian Sport Compact Series time attack season championship with his STI last year on a stock pan and pickup and he's been running track days like that for years. Does that prove an upgraded wet sump pan and dry sump have no value? Of course not. Once he upgrades his tires he'll need something better and he's been lucky to get away with this as long as he has.

Phil has being extremely kind at this point, still saying you make a good product that's sufficient for most people, but ask a real aero engineer involved with high level unlimited class time attack cars or GT1 race cars how many cars he supports that survive without a dry sump if you don't believe Phil or I.

That's not a knock on your product. It's a real limitation of a wet sump system. We get that you won't see it any other way because of how you view your own product, but you could at least apologize to Phil for what you said. He's been very polite considering.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:57 AM   #46
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Don't worry I know I'm far from perfect

Nobody here is asking you to defend your product, it has it's place. The OP asked about dry sumps. Who by the way hasn't posted again. LOL!

amazingmumford,

Looking good! How's the rest of the car car coming along?

We'll need to update your Hydra flash and map when you're ready. Just give me a heads up when you're getting close.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:12 PM   #47
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So how do some car manufacturers create dry sump setups that are reliable and don't need constant maintenance?

-Matt
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:20 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty_STi View Post
V8 guys talk about gaining some serious power from dry sump (in some cases like 40-60hp). Is that something that is seen on subies (perhaps not those levels of hp gains, but meaningful ones)?? Just to throw another wrench in the works.

Matt
The reduction in pumping losses will free up some power.
Improved ring seal can as well.
Keeping oil from getting into the combustion chamber via breather hoses can also improve power output.

In my case my setup is too unique to use for comparison. Most guys aren't running water to air intercoolers with the turbo in the glove box area, 4" exhaust out the side of the car etc.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:30 PM   #49
Element Tuning
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So how do some car manufacturers create dry sump setups that are reliable and don't need constant maintenance?

-Matt
The constant maintenance part is news to me as I haven't had to touch anything and neither have any of my customers. The pumps are very reliable these days and really don't need maintenance. The rest is just tanks, hoses, and lines.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:02 PM   #50
Matty_STi
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The constant maintenance part is news to me as I haven't had to touch anything and neither have any of my customers. The pumps are very reliable these days and really don't need maintenance. The rest is just tanks, hoses, and lines.
Hmmm interesting. The (old cosworth us site back when it actually had information about cosworth products) stated there was an appreciable increase in the amount of maintenance and was pretty explicit of that as a warning. Also read that in a few other spots.

Perhaps constant maintenance was a bit of an over exaggeration. But the question I'm raising is still there. You'll see dry sumps used on some cars from the factory but there doesn't seem to be any change to the listed maintenance schedule. Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it? <-wouldn't be the first time.

And as you've stated you haven't had to touch anything. So perhaps the extra maintenance is just a red herring.

Matt
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